Atheists
- Thread starter moreluck
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upswife75
Well-Known Member
Wrong again, because the bit about lambs blood on door posts was only given to Moses for his people. Pharaoh was told that there would be wailing and crying amongst his people but there would be silence amongst the Israelites. God then told Moses the instructions about how to choose the lambs, how to cook the lambs, where to put the blood and so on. Unleavened bread, burn the remaining lamb so none is left when the night is over, blah blah blah. This was told ONLY to the Israelites.
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
So please, spare me the "don't kill the innocent because god doesn't like it" when god has plenty of blood on his hands, were you to believe in his existence. As you said, it's all there in black and white. Can't take the good without accepting the bad, as well. Or did Satan make him do it? He made the choice to kill all of the first born, whether they were guilty of anything or not, whether they were 20 years old and evil as hell or a newborn, pure as the driven snow.
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
"HypoChristians" cherry-pick The Bible and then translate and/or quote only the scripture that suits their agenda.
upswife75
Well-Known Member
You mean like when they preach against homosexuality based on Leviticus while wearing their polyblend suit, that they dribbled a bit of cocktail sauce on from their shrimp lunch?
wkmac
Well-Known Member
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Upsmule
Well-Known Member
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.(Exodus 8:15) the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said.(Exodus 8:19) But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.(Exodus 8:32)Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.(Exodus 9:7)[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.(Exodus 9:34).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]First, even though God promised Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart...the book of Exodus more than underscores the fact that Pharaoh was the one responsible for hardening his own heart. Also, time and time again, God presented Pharaoh with ample opportunity to either repent or continue in rebellion. Every time God showed Pharaoh mercy and removed plague after plague from Egypt he responded with stubborn disobedience. Gods mercy is the reason for the hardening of Pharaoh's heart... of his own fruition!
God judges all men justly..."[/FONT]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) But every time God provides an oportunity to repent, like Pharaoh, they harden their hearts in disbelief.
Upsmule
Well-Known Member
Upsmule
Well-Known Member
When all these things are viewed in light of the full context, God's commands are perfectly consistent with His mercy as well as His justice.
A text without a context is a pretext.
God's commands to destroy the nations of people living in the promised land of Canaan, to "destroy them totally" (Deuteronomy 7:2) when seen in context is saying, "Do not intermarry with them, for they will turn your sons and daughters away from following me to serve other gods...this is what you are to do to them; Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire" (Deut.:3-5). It's then pretty clear....the intent was not the obliteration of the wicked, but rather the wickedness. For example...
God's martial instructions are qualified by his moral intentions to spare the repentant! As the author of the book of Hebrews writes..."By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient" (Hebrews 11:31). Not only was Rahab AND her family spared because of her faith, she was allowed to live among the Israelites (Joshua 6:25) and came to hold a rather privileged position in the lineage of Jesus Christ(Matthew 1:5).
Another example would be the City of Nineveh of God's mercy towards the repentant in the book of Jonah.
Upsmule
Well-Known Member
No, he's a liar. The father of lies. Just look around you. God didn't create this. We did. Because we bought a lie.
upswife75
Well-Known Member
I'm not condemning the bible. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of those who would take some parts of the bible to justify their morals while ignoring other parts that don't suit their rhetoric. Using the parts like thou shalt not kill yet ignoring that god had plenty of innocent blood on his own hands. Or, using Leviticus to condemn gays, while they themselves ignore other parts of Leviticus, completely.
As for knocking faith...Having faith is fine, but take the good with the bad, or don't take any of it. If your faith is bound by the words in this book, you have to take the parts you don't agree with, not just the ones that suit your needs. That is my only beef here. I would expect someone to do the exact same to me if I claimed the tenets of humanism while going around, harming people for no reason.
upswife75
Well-Known Member
You are quoting my words that had nothing to do with the aspects of who it was that hardened pharaoh's heart, and everything to do with the fact that god was quite capable of simply punishing the man in question without having to shed the innocent blood of all the firstborn of Egypt. There is no justification for that. I'm not the revenge type, but if I was and someone wronged me or was an evil person, I would go after that person specifically, not say, his newborn child and all the firstborn of his family. That isn't justice or righteous punishment, it's vindictiveness.
Yes. And do so as silently as Christ suggested we pray. Not out in the open so as to give people the impression of our own piety. It seems that if we look closely enough, the virtues Christ extols are never front and center but couched in parable. It is not the actions taken by the loathsome Samaritan that are important. Not his politics or religion, but a very basic compassion that weaves its way through all religion and even what today is called secular humanism. Even in his miracles Christ deflect praise away from himself and directed it to God. So if I live by any virtue or do any good whatsoever in life, any attempt to take credit or limelight or praise for it risks prideful usurpation of what God has done. Quite simply I get to thank God for using me to do his will. I doubt that I will ever be pastor of a mega-church.
oldngray
nowhere special
I will say that secular humanism is completely different from Christianity. But I do agree that too many churches use religion and doctrine to set bad examples for what true Christianity is about. Its about faith. Religion will send many people ( self professed Christians) to hell. And I also dislike the mega churches. Some are good but the majority are just hypocrites in it for the money.
Upsmule
Well-Known Member
Amen, that being said..."13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. --Matthew 5:13-15
Somehow, I think, too often the "...and glorify your Father in heaven" gets swept off to the side. As Christians, the good we do is only of him and others are free to follow or not. We serve because we are called to do so, not to for earthly or even heavenly gain. Even the most righteous doesn't get to demand entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Upsmule
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not denying your bringing up a very legitimate point and question. But as I tried to point out. God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart He simply allowed it. Pharaoh hardened his own heart and iron clad will against the obvious hand of God over and over and over again. God is God and we are not. Who knows why he chooses His ways for His ways are not our ways.
Who knows. As barbaric as your point seems to paint a loving merciful God out to be, a God that's long suffering slow to anger and "would that none perish" (The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9) one could also make the argument that Pharaoh brought it all on himself, and God spared these first born of Egypt from what would be a lifetime of false god and idol worship with the end result being an eternity separated from a Holy God and creator.
That aside, I don't need to pick and choose certain bible verses - to throw out the ugly and cling to the inspirational to justify my own belief and or lifestyle as many sadly do. I can look up into the sky at night and see His handiwork. I can see my children being born and know we aren't a result of some cosmic accident that crawled out of some primordial soup and then sprouted limbs and began walking eventually. Now THAT'S what I call blind faith.
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