Atheists

Upsmule

Well-Known Member
LOL! I might have to try that sometime but for my experience the JW seem to avoid my door. I have no idea why! :wink2:

Same here. They only needed one visit to my door to see that I was an untouchable heretic with answers to their lies. Err, misguided well intentions.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I will give credit to the JW's in that one of my best hebrew and greek lexicons of the dozens I have is from a Jehovah Witness source. So many bring you back to a transliteration instead of an actual translation and the JW lexicon does a better job in avoiding that trap.

Not sure how many JW's read their bibles and use their own lexicon but IMO they are depriving themselves of a worthy resource right at their fingertips!

You know, come to think of it, getting that JW lexicon out may be why I don't get knocks on my door anymore.:wink2:
 

upswife75

Well-Known Member
I think Penn was just showing respect for another person's point of view. That's fine, but I still don't want Elder Jackwad and Elder Dillweed ringing my doorbell Saturday morning and trying to convert me. "Thank you, but please leave my property". Polite, and to the point.

Heh, I found that answering the door with a python wrapped around your neck and your son's screamo playing in the background, works quite well at keeping the JWs away. :p
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
And of all of those new holy books, none are more historically verifiable than the Old and New Testament's. With every turn of an archeologist's spade the bible's validity is merely backed up rather than able to be disputed. I didn't say it proves anything so don't get all your panties in a wad guys. Just saying.

Well your claims are not quite true to say the least. The archeologist spade is actually raising more reasons to question the bible as historical source. For starters, consider the excellent NOVA program, The Bible's Buried Secrets. The BBC did a 3 part series with Professor of Hebrew and Ancient Religion Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou entitled Bible's Buried Secrets in 3 parts. Both raise serious and deep questions about the accuracy of the bible as a historical source. Tel Aviv University history professor Dr. Shlomo Sand has blown open the doors of research in his work, The Invention of the Jewish People that not unlike Arthur Koestler's early work, The Thirteenth Tribe overturned the historical apple cart. The Jesus Seminar, now known as Westar Institute, is another source worth consideration if one it taking the bible as literal.

But in regards to the bible as a historical document, I think Dr. Bart Ehrman does a good job of first explaining what a good historical source document is and then examines the bible in one case as to how good a historical source document it is. And who is Bart Ehrman?

The Case Against the Resurrection (Bart D. Ehrman) - YouTube

You can also research Burton Mack and Richard Elliot Friedman for their takes on biblical documents.

And if you want more, here is a radio interview with Dr. Ehrman on more of the bible as historical source.

Contradictions of the New Testament - YouTube
 

Upsmule

Well-Known Member
There is no other historically verifiable text's than the bible, period. A long known fact, but not unable to be spun to suit ones world view obviously.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
There is no other historically verifiable text's than the bible, period. A long known fact, but not unable to be spun to suit ones world view obviously.

Well if one shuts down all points of view, never looking or considering, then one can comfortably and easily hold the position that you do. It seems self evident doesn't it?

Ever ask why if god's bible is the perfect word of god, that it is self evident, why do we need priests or preachers to explain it and apologists to rectify the many contradictions?
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
There is no other historically verifiable text's than the bible, period. A long known fact, but not unable to be spun to suit ones world view obviously.
How can that be true if texts from Josephus are used to verify and in fact at times contradict Biblical assertions? When the texts are examined from the period it is amazing what becomes clear. Messiahs were a dime a dozen. Virgin birth stories were common. Miracle workers were everywhere. The Jesus of Nazareth was really quite commonplace for the time.
 

Upsmule

Well-Known Member
I've never suggested the bible is perfect. Christianity has never made that claim. Plenty is obviously lost in translation.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
I've never suggested the bible is perfect. Christianity has never made that claim. Plenty is obviously lost in translation.
But there is more to it. The truly amazing and miraculous thing is that the Christian faith with all its warts and failings has continued to flourish through the millenia even in the face of skeptics and naysayers. There are very intelligent people across all walks of life and all professions who profess Christianity without reservation. No amount of dissecting will negate the fact that it has held great appeal for millions.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I think Penn was just showing respect for another person's point of view. That's fine,
/QUOTE]


​And yet so difficult for some.

I respect your views. However, I don't respect the fact that Christians generally do NOT respect the views of other religions, particularly Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists (among others). I also "get" Penn's take that if your beliefs are strong, you need to share them. But that's Penn, not me. I think you can believe whatever you want. I just don't want to hear that "I'm wrong", or your rationale that the Earth is 6,000 years old etc. Believe what you want...I just don't want it shoved down my throat or have you attempt to convert my belief/non-belief system.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Seriously, MFE. Do people really try to convert you? Do they show up at your door and sing hymns at your open window? Most people claiming they are "having it shoved down their throats" are active participants in the conversation.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Seriously, MFE. Do people really try to convert you? Do they show up at your door and sing hymns at your open window? Most people claiming they are "having it shoved down their throats" are active participants in the conversation.

When the JWs, or LDS, or anyone else come to my door, they are "witnessing". That means they are both spreading the word and looking for new members. If I'm interested, I'll go to the local church, synagogue, temple, mosque etc.on my own. I don't need door-to-door salesmanship. If I want a conversation about religion, I'll ask for it directly, and I have some great discussions with friends and co-workers.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
When the JWs, or LDS, or anyone else come to my door, they are "witnessing". That means they are both spreading the word and looking for new members. If I'm interested, I'll go to the local church, synagogue, temple, mosque etc.on my own. I don't need door-to-door salesmanship. If I want a conversation about religion, I'll ask for it directly, and I have some great discussions with friends and co-workers.

"Thank, but no thanks?".
 

oldngray

nowhere special
If the JW's knock on your door start your own spiel about the really great benefits of the life insurance you can sell them.
 

Upsmule

Well-Known Member
There is stronger manuscript support for scripture texts than Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, and Tacitus. Equally amazing is the fact that the bible has been virtually unaltered since the original writings, as has been attested to by numerous scholars who have compared the earliest manuscripts with ones written centuries later. And again..archaeological finds have affirmed the details surrounding the trial that led to the torment of Jesus Christ, as well as Pontius Pilate who ordered the crucifixion. As well as Caiaphas the high priest who presided over the religious trials of Christ. Telling isn't it, when scholars have to revise their biblical criticisms in light of solid archaeological evidence.

Then there's the Old Testament recorded predictions of well known historical events that could in no way have been predicted by chance or even common sense, like the book of Daniel written before 530 BC absolutely accurately predicts the progression of nations from Babylon through the Median as well as Persian empires to the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes with his desecration of the temple, his untimely death as well as freedom for the Jews under Judas Maccabeus...(165 BC). I find it far more impossible to believe that, the bibles specific detailed prophecies could have been fulfilled by chance, good guessing or deliberate deceit. But to each his own obviously.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
When the JWs, or LDS, or anyone else come to my door, they are "witnessing". That means they are both spreading the word and looking for new members. If I'm interested, I'll go to the local church, synagogue, temple, mosque etc.on my own. I don't need door-to-door salesmanship. If I want a conversation about religion, I'll ask for it directly, and I have some great discussions with friends and co-workers.
And you call what JW and LDS do "shoving it down your throat"? That's a stretch.
 

upswife75

Well-Known Member
I can't speak for MrFedEx, but living in the south, I HAVE had people try to shove their belief down my throat just while standing in line at the grocery store, walking through the parking lot just last week when some lady got all pissy about my Coexist bumper sticker, and more than once at school events for my kids. I had a daycare worker that was FORCING my son to pray every day at lunch time (not a church run daycare) and when I told her it needed to stop or I would find somewhere else for my kid to go, she informed me that she didn't want a child that was surely going to hell because his mother refused to have him saved (said right in front of my then 4 year old son). I found another daycare IMMEDIATELY.
 

Upsmule

Well-Known Member
I can't speak for MrFedEx, but living in the south, I HAVE had people try to shove their belief down my throat just while standing in line at the grocery store, walking through the parking lot just last week when some lady got all pissy about my Coexist bumper sticker, and more than once at school events for my kids. I had a daycare worker that was FORCING my son to pray every day at lunch time (not a church run daycare) and when I told her it needed to stop or I would find somewhere else for my kid to go, she informed me that she didn't want a child that was surely going to hell because his mother refused to have him saved (said right in front of my then 4 year old son). I found another daycare IMMEDIATELY.

Frightening. And sad.
 
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