Biggest scam is on all UPS hourly employees

[over9five]

"I have read the APWA`s proposals and have emailed them with several questions. I have yet to receive a answer."

Why won't the APWA answer our questions???? What are they hiding???

 

[beentheredonethat]

In the past three months, I have started two new threads "Are the Teamsters really working for you"? and "Not one valid reason to stay with the Teamsters". There has not been one intellectual response to either of these threads, but I have given you many reasons why it is time for a change. I have now come up with the ultimate reason and numbers to prove to you why you are being scammed. These numbers are factual and can not be disputed.
UPS contributes $214 per week per employee into the pension fund. This amounts to $11,128 annually. If this money were to be invested over 30 years with an average return of 8%, then each of us would have over $1,200,000 upon retirement at any age. Even if you received a $300,000 lump sum payout upon retirement, your account would still have $900,000 which would still be accruing interest and allow a monthly pension of $7,000. No further money would be needed to fund your pension.

First of all, Keep in mind I agree overall with your premise that the pension isn't what it should be due to multiple factors. However, I would disagree with the notion that the numbers are factual and can not be disputed. I'm disputing one main point. You are assuming that every year for the last 30 years the contribution rate was $11,128/yr. It hasn't been. As time has gone by the contribution rate has increased. I don't know what it's been each year but that. Pensions weren't designed so that people make way more in retirement then working. It doesn't make sense for someone to make 300K as a payout and still make 7K a month or 84K per year. However, what is being offered in a payout is way less then it should be.

The only way for your numbers to be true is saying what will happen in 30 years (again assuming that there is no increase in the pension contribution). However, in 30 years will 1.2 million be worth what it is now?

 

[local804]

Engineer,
Our dental and eyeglass coverage are covered 100% , our co-pay is $5.00 and out meds are $3.00.Our pension is underfunded at this moment, but we still have our 25 and out intact. I am all about listening to new things and possible trying out something new, but you know what?
I went to their web and I was not at all impressed. Show me something that will catch my eye and I will see you. Tell me something I want to hear and I will listen you.

Ps I think I am the only one in NY that even heard of APWA. I have asked about 30 people and they have no clue what I am talking about.

 

[DS]

I`m in Canada and nobody here has heard of them either,except me I guess,all I know is that we are making about$3 less an hour than you guys,and the teamsters
never did anything for me except take my money.I want
to see a change.I also agree that this could take a few years.
Oldupsman said it best,pension funds vary from state to state
and a driver that is going to retire in 5 years will have to be sure he will get what he`s entitled to under the APWA.Why would he take the chance? He wont.Thats why its going to
be a long road for them unless they answer all the questions.
This is a good thread,lots of good questions about what really matters in our future.

 

[twnjrspc]

If the government does not work for you, you have an opportunity to vote them out. Look at the last election. This country was tired of the direction that the Bush administration and the Republican party was leading us, so we voted out 35 Republicans in the House and 6 Republican senators. The Democrats now control the House and Senate. The same is true of the Teamsters. They are not working for us, so it is time to vote them out and replace them with a union that will work for us.

And just a few months ago, you, as well as some 300,000 other UPS employees, had an opportunity to vote out the likes of The Hoffa Slate. Where was everyone during that election? What part did you play in that election? And thus I make my point. Corruption and politics are in every facet of our lives. The only way to get control of it and make it work for us, is in numbers. To divide, is to conquer! And since you've failed to answer my quote completely, let me do it for you. This APWA doesn't exist, they represent no one. You would have us all believe in this fairy tale of pixies and fairy dust, where the UPS world will be perfect. What is it that you don't understand! Talk about scams!

 

[DorkHead]

Engineer. I am in the West New York pension fund

It seems to me that the CS fund`s problems are a result from mismanagement on Morgan Stanley and Sachs behalf. Why didn`t our government watch over where they were investing the money

 

[satellitedriver]

you would have to vote out all unions then. Unions will always try to control the pension money.

Hey Tie,
Controling and managing pension funds for the pensioner are two seperate issues.
As it stands right now, our funds are being controlled not managed.

 

[satellitedriver]

Engineer, I have full medical coverage with a copay of only 5 dollars for meds. Full dental and eyeglass care. In 8 years I will have 30 in with a monthly pension of 6100 dollars. I will be 55. If I take a popup of 400 dollars per month then my wife will receive 5700 dollars per month after I die until her death.

I have read the APWA`s proposals and have emailed them with several questions. I have yet to receive a answer.

I have no reason to join them and neither does the other people in our area.

WOW!!!
You can not be in my CS plan. Divided your pension by 3, send CS $560.00 a month for medical and my wife gets half of that if I die. After 25yrs of service and the age of 58. I verified these numbers with CS.
So you either are blowing smoke, or you are under a very different plan than most UPS employees.

 

[satellitedriver]

Engineer. I am in the West New York pension fund

It seems to me that the CS fund`s problems are a result from mismanagement on Morgan Stanley and Sachs behalf. Why didn`t our government watch over where they were investing the money

Why didn't the union watch over the money, since they are the one's in control of it.

 

[wildgoose]

Change is not always necessary.

Only in your mind change isn`t always necessary but in this case it is obvious!

 

[wildgoose]

In the past three months, I have started two new threads "Are the Teamsters really working for you"? and "Not one valid reason to stay with the Teamsters". There has not been one intellectual response to either of these threads, but I have given you many reasons why it is time for a change. I have now come up with the ultimate reason and numbers to prove to you why you are being scammed. These numbers are factual and can not be disputed.
UPS contributes $214 per week per employee into the pension fund. This amounts to $11,128 annually. If this money were to be invested over 30 years with an average return of 8%, then each of us would have over $1,200,000 upon retirement at any age. Even if you received a $300,000 lump sum payout upon retirement, your account would still have $900,000 which would still be accruing interest and allow a monthly pension of $7,000. No further money would be needed to fund your pension. As of now, you are being offered a fraction of that by the Teamsters. Where does the rest of your money go? For every dollar that UPS contributes to your pension fund, only 40 cents goes to you. Employees from other companies are enjoying our medical and pension money, because of the multi-pension plan we are stuck with under the Teamsters. UPS money ($1.80 per hour) that was earmarked for our medical benefits are being diverted into the pension fund. This will result in our medical benefits being underfunded, and we will all be paying more to make up for the shortcoming. The Teamsters are discussing the likely possibility that we each pay $200 per month to cover medical and health benefits. Also, in the event of your death, your spouse only receives 5 years of your monthly pension. After that, your spouse receives a 50% reduction in benefits if he/she chooses to pay for survivor benefits. There is no financial security for your family. It's your money; shouldn't you and your family get to keep what you worked hard to earn?
Our multi-pension plan is beyond the point of no return. The pension fund has liabilities that outweigh the assets. In laymans terms, this means that more money goes out than comes in. Each year, an additional 2,000 employees retire, thus putting our fund further in the hole. UPS is not going to put additional money into this sinking fund, especially if most of the money does not go to UPS employees.
Let me give you a little insight on myself and where I came up with this. I have a Bachelor of Science degree, my wife has a masters degree in marketing, my father-in-law has a Phd in finance from the University of Louisville, and my brother is a CPA. We discussed the current state that the pension fund is in, and concluded that our pension fund is doomed in its present status. It can't sustain it's present course without further cuts being made, or a massive influx of money which is unlikely to occur.
We analyzed the above scenario ($1,200,000) and reasoned that this is not only viable, but our only option at this point in time. This is exactly what the APWA is proposing, but for whatever strange reasons, people such as Brett636, tieguy, etc... refuse to open their minds and see both sides of the coin. I understand if you are a Teamster leader or a BA and your job depends on UPS money, but these people are not looking out for our best interests, only their own. I will gladly debate you on the pros and cons of the Teamsters vs the APWA, but you have to respond intellectually. Last time, Brett636 showed me a picture of a wrench, or said that he didn't trust the APWA without specifically stating one reason of doubt.
Another point to think about: Why do the Teamsters want you to work until 65 years of age? They know that most of you will not be able to physically do this work when you are getting older, so you will not receive very much of your pension if anything at all. Under the APWA plan, the feeder drivers will be able to retire after 30 years at any age, the older package car drivers will be able to move into feeder positions, and the part time employees will have more openings when full time driver positions become available.
The APWA plan benefits everyone, whether you are close to retiring or just beginning your career. If you are an older employee, you will still receive the same pension amount you are due under the Teamsters, but you can retire at any age after 30 years of service without any penalties, get medical coverage for $300 per couple per month, instead of up to $1040(Teamsters), and best of all, your spouse will receive the full pension until he/she dies without having to pay for survivor benefits. If you are just starting out with UPS, then you will reap the maximum benefits stated above ($300,000 lumpsum payout upon retirement and a monthly pension of $7000). Under the Teamsters, the opposite is true.
After reading all this, if you still aren't convinced that the APWA is your only sensible option, then there is nothing more to say. If you want this to work, the APWA needs your help to achieve its goals. We would like you to join, but if you don't and still want to be rewarded for working at UPS, we ask that you spread the word to your fellow drivers and part time employees. In the next few months, we will need your signatures to ask the NLRB to replace the Teamsters with the APWA. This is going to be your only chance at securing a secure financial future for yourself and your family, so get involved and help get those signatures. If you don't get involved now, then don't expect much from the Teamsters when or if you make it to your retirement age.

Undisputed facts as always and people will still argue because the thinking process they use for teamsters is not the one they use for their everyday life ! So that will never change the rational of any non rational thinking people !

 

[brett636]

Why didn't the union watch over the money, since they are the one's in control of it.

Only a fool would believe the union has 100% control over the pension funds.

 

[nospinzone]

It's not that the on paper information you compiled doesn't sound good,and may be factual, but that this APWA doesn't exist. Who are they currently representing? Where are the UPS employees that are reaping all these APWA benefits? To the best us my knowledge, it's just all on paper. A paper Tiger!

You fail to allow us to debate on an even playing field. People ask how APWA can make these benefit promises and the answer relies on the projections APWA has made assuming that as the bargaining agent they would be receiving the employer contributions. The whole debate here revolves around the question,,, If APWA were the bargaining agent, how could they use the SAME AMOUNT OF EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS that the IBT is using to provide better health insurance or pension benefits. Using the same employer contributions that the IBT receives from UPS, how could the APWA provide better insurance for the 217,00 UPS employees. CS has done the same thing here. Using the current contribution rates and their financial responsibilities, which are burdened by the thousands of non-UPS leaches, they have projected their best and ever-decreasing benefits they can provide. If we applied your "paper tiger" arguement to US Presidental debates, here is what it would sound like.

Moderator: Mr. Kerry, as president of the United States, how do you plan to improve the quality of air fresheners in truckstop restrooms?

Kerry: Well Jim,,,,

Bush: Jim, I can answer that for Kerry. He is not the president. Nor will he ever be the president. He has no chance of being president and all his answers rely on "ifs and promises". So everything he is about to say amounts to a hill of beans.

Only a fool would believe the union has 100% control over the pension funds.

Only a fool would continue giving his money to a union/pension fund in which 40% of his contributions go to someone else.

 

[twnjrspc]

You fail to allow us to debate on an even playing field. People ask how APWA can make these benefit promises and the answer relies on the projections APWA has made assuming that as the bargaining agent they would be receiving the employer contributions. The whole debate here revolves around the question,,, If APWA were the bargaining agent, how could they use the SAME AMOUNT OF EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS that the IBT is using to provide better health insurance or pension benefits. Using the same employer contributions that the IBT receives from UPS, how could the APWA provide better insurance for the 217,00 UPS employees. CS has done the same thing here. Using the current contribution rates and their financial responsibilities, which are burdened by the thousands of non-UPS leaches, they have projected their best and ever-decreasing benefits they can provide. If we applied your "paper tiger" arguement to US Presidental debates, here is what it would sound like.

Moderator: Mr. Kerry, as president of the United States, how do you plan to improve the quality of air fresheners in truckstop restrooms?

Kerry: Well Jim,,,,

Bush: Jim, I can answer that for Kerry. He is not the president. Nor will he ever be the president. He has no chance of being president and all his answers rely on "ifs and promises". So everything he is about to say amounts to a hill of beans.
Only a fool would continue giving his money to a union/pension fund in which 40% of his contributions go to someone else.

"Fair Playing Field" First off, you have to be legitimate, bonifide, and certifide to play. Is the APWA a certifide representing Labor organization? Are they listed with the Dept. Of Labor? "Assumtions" In other words, if The APWA were for real, this is how our newly formed Union "would work". Mr. Kerry is a real Senator, and Mr. Bush, a real President. Neither was talking about disbanding from our current government to start a new, but as to how better improve the current government. "Elections" Where was your concern during the recent Teamster elections? The APWA had an opportunity to change the Teamsters by running for Union office, but failed to do so. Instead you feel it more wise to dicertify, or "Divide and Conquer", and lead the sheep to the promiseland. Only fools will follow.

 

[oldupsman]

I disagree Nospin. The whole debate revolves whether or not the APWA could negoiate a contract that would get UPS to contribute the same amount of money to the pension fund that the Teamster currently do. And no matter what you say you cannot promise that.

 

[brett636]

"Fair Playing Field" First off, you have to be legitimate, bonifide, and certifide to play. Is the APWA a certifide representing Labor organization? Are they listed with the Dept. Of Labor? "Assumtions" In other words, if The APWA were for real, this is how our newly formed Union "would work". Mr. Kerry is a real Senator, and Mr. Bush, a real President. Neither was talking about disbanding from our current government to start a new, but as to how better improve the current government. "Elections" Where was your concern during the recent Teamster elections? The APWA had an opportunity to change the Teamsters by running for Union office, but failed to do so. Instead you feel it more wise to dicertify, or "Divide and Conquer", and lead the sheep to the promiseland. Only fools will follow.

BRAVO!!!

Only a fool would continue giving his money to a union/pension fund in which 40% of his contributions go to someone else.

This fool will be living it up in retirement while you're still preaching the APWA propaganda.

 

[nospinzone]

APWA....the Evolution of Labor

"Fair Playing Field" First off, you have to be legitimate, bonifide, and certifide to play. Is the APWA a certifide representing Labor organization? Are they listed with the Dept. Of Labor?

APWA is a legal labor union. You get listed with the Dept of Labor after you've been certified as a bargaining agent. The DOL monitors and handles financial filings of unions that have been certified. So the DOL will not touch the APWA until such time. However, the APWA is a legal union in the eyes of the NLRB. The APWA has been filing motions to the NLRB and the NLRB has been protecting employees who wish to support APWA. And the NLRB finds the APWA to be a real union and would impose real fines and restrictions on the APWA if they committed infractions. Dont believe me? Call up the NLRB yourself and ask em if they've had dealings with the APWA (1-866-667-NLRB )
The APWA has no interest in representing anyone other than the UPS employee. So they will only be on the DOL website if UPS employees certify them. This is how the process works. You don't get on the DOL website before the fact. Your ill-conceived requirement that a union be recognized by the DOL would disqualify every new union going through this process. The IPA WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY THE DOL UNTIL THE PILOTS VOTED THEM IN. Did this fact make them illegitimate?? Your'e trying to put the cart before the horse, and no newly formed union would be capable of satisfying your requirement.

...Neither was talking about disbanding from our current government to start a new, but as to how better improve the current government. "Elections" Where was your concern during the recent Teamster elections? The APWA had an opportunity to change the Teamsters by running for Union office, but failed to do so. Instead you feel it more wise to dicertify, or "Divide and Conquer", and lead the sheep to the promiseland.

APWA is completely within the framework of the NLRA. The Act set up a process whereby employees who are disatisfied with their current representation can select a new BA. IBT no longer operates in the best interest of the UPS employee, who is the ONLY INTEREST of the APWA. APWA has no interest, desire, motivation to represent Carhaulers, Yellow Freight or any other employee other than the guys that wear the brown. Running for IBT leadership would force the candidate to represent someone other than UPS.
If UPS members wanted to effect change in IBT leadership that would protect UPS interests, we would never be capable of winning that vote. We, the UPS member, would never get the numbers. Anyone who fights to protect the UPS membership would be fighting against the interests of the other IBT members. And look at the numbers. IBT national membership is supposedly around 1.4 million. And IBT, according to their website, represents only 200,000 UPS members. By my math, thats only 15% of the total vote. If you can paint those numbers any other way, feel free to enlighten me. UPS employees will never be successful in effecting IBT leadership unless we pull out completely.

This fool will be living it up in retirement while you're still preaching the APWA propaganda.

You're concern for those who were relying on their pension, which will now only pay out around $2,500 after you deduct insurance premiums, is obvious. Your concern for the new guys who will be forced to work 35 and forty years just so that IBT can give half of their earned pension to someone else is obvious. But to each his own, and I hope you enjoy what you've earned.

Divide..........and Move Forward.

 

[satellitedriver]

Only a fool would believe the union has 100% control over the pension funds.

Only a fool?

Foolish me.
All the money goes through the union first.
Then, after their wise decisions of where that money should go, I get my cut.
IMHO the union should manage the pension not control it.
Please enlighten me on who controls my pension money given to the teamsters by UPS and I only recieve 40% of that money.
Since,I am only a simple fool at the foot of the king.
I would welcome you explaining it to me.

 

[DorkHead]

sattelitedriver, please read this and no I am not blowing smoke The New York Times > Business > Teamsters Find Pensions at Risk

 

[brett636]

Only a fool?

Foolish me.
All the money goes through the union first.
Then, after their wise decisions of where that money should go, I get my cut.
IMHO the union should manage the pension not control it.
Please enlighten me on who controls my pension money given to the teamsters by UPS and I only recieve 40% of that money.
Since,I am only a simple fool at the foot of the king.
I would welcome you explaining it to me.

Gladly, the pension money goes into a big pot that is managed by a group of teamster and company reps. Niether group has 100% control over the money in those funds. In fact, sqabbling between these two groups is part of the reason these funds are in the shape they are today.