Biggest scam is on all UPS hourly employees

[brett636]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

APWA is a legal labor union. You get listed with the Dept of Labor after you've been certified as a bargaining agent. The DOL monitors and handles financial filings of unions that have been certified. So the DOL will not touch the APWA until such time. However, the APWA is a legal union in the eyes of the NLRB. The APWA has been filing motions to the NLRB and the NLRB has been protecting employees who wish to support APWA. And the NLRB finds the APWA to be a real union and would impose real fines and restrictions on the APWA if they committed infractions. Dont believe me? Call up the NLRB yourself and ask em if they've had dealings with the APWA (1-866-667-NLRB )
The APWA has no interest in representing anyone other than the UPS employee. So they will only be on the DOL website if UPS employees certify them. This is how the process works. You don't get on the DOL website before the fact. Your ill-conceived requirement that a union be recognized by the DOL would disqualify every new union going through this process. The IPA WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY THE DOL UNTIL THE PILOTS VOTED THEM IN. Did this fact make them illegitimate?? Your'e trying to put the cart before the horse, and no newly formed union would be capable of satisfying your requirement.

APWA is completely within the framework of the NLRA. The Act set up a process whereby employees who are disatisfied with their current representation can select a new BA. IBT no longer operates in the best interest of the UPS employee, who is the ONLY INTEREST of the APWA. APWA has no interest, desire, motivation to represent Carhaulers, Yellow Freight or any other employee other than the guys that wear the brown. Running for IBT leadership would force the candidate to represent someone other than UPS.
If UPS members wanted to effect change in IBT leadership that would protect UPS interests, we would never be capable of winning that vote. We, the UPS member, would never get the numbers. Anyone who fights to protect the UPS membership would be fighting against the interests of the other IBT members. And look at the numbers. IBT national membership is supposedly around 1.4 million. And IBT, according to their website, represents only 200,000 UPS members. By my math, thats only 15% of the total vote. If you can paint those numbers any other way, feel free to enlighten me. UPS employees will never be successful in effecting IBT leadership unless we pull out completely. You're concern for those who were relying on their pension, which will now only pay out around $2,500 after you deduct insurance premiums, is obvious. Your concern for the new guys who will be forced to work 35 and forty years just so that IBT can give half of their earned pension to someone else is obvious. But to each his own, and I hope you enjoy what you've earned.

Divide..........and Move Forward.

I agree with spinzone now. Lets let the APWA take over for the teamsters and see what they can do. Whats the worst that can happen? If their negoiating team collapses like a house of cards we would only be giving up the best wages in our industry. When they are trying to get the company to give them alteast half what the teamsters were getting in pension contributions they have to negotiate away our excellent benefit packages so be it. Finally, once the APWA realizes they can only give us a pension similar or worse to what we currently recieve atleast we can know we tried to improve our situation despite how vain of an attempt is was.

 

[wildgoose]

Gladly, the pension money goes into a big pot that is managed by a group of teamster and company reps. Niether group has 100% control over the money in those funds. In fact, sqabbling between these two groups is part of the reason these funds are in the shape they are today.

Its obvious like giving money to family and waiting to get paid back ? That is what the teamsters are like the black sheep of finance !

 

[3brownstars]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

OK, lets see why the company would agree to keep paying, at least, the same benefit on my behalf.

I,m 35. Paying the same benefit to the APWA, I can retire very comfortable in 20yrs age 55. Reduce the benefit I stay longer. Now, UPS is already paying that amount, and still making a good profit.

The way things are now, I have to work until I'm 65 and still won't be getting the amount of retirement that was stated in the contract.

Do you think UPS is going to give the IBT the large increse in contributions, that they claim they need, to fix the pension problem? From the company point of view, they have to ask, "We pay the IBT more money, What keeps the pension from being in the same condition it is in right now?". The answer is nothing.

Now that UPS is in the freight business, they just have to be thrilled that 60% of the money they pay, on behalf of the parcel side pension, goes to the emloyees of UPS Freight competitors; Yellow, Roadway, Holland,...not to mention the hundreds of other companies in different industries.

UPS MONEY, FOR UPS PEOPLE, UNDER A UPS UNION!!!!

APWA ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

 

[brett636]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

OK, lets see why the company would agree to keep paying, at least, the same benefit on my behalf.

I,m 35. Paying the same benefit to the APWA, I can retire very comfortable in 20yrs age 55. Reduce the benefit I stay longer. Now, UPS is already paying that amount, and still making a good profit.

The way things are now, I have to work until I'm 65 and still won't be getting the amount of retirement that was stated in the contract.

Do you think UPS is going to give the IBT the large increse in contributions, that they claim they need, to fix the pension problem? From the company point of view, they have to ask, "We pay the IBT more money, What keeps the pension from being in the same condition it is in right now?". The answer is nothing.

Now that UPS is in the freight business, they just have to be thrilled that 60% of the money they pay, on behalf of the parcel side pension, goes to the emloyees of UPS Freight competitors; Yellow, Roadway, Holland,...not to mention the hundreds of other companies in different industries.

UPS MONEY, FOR UPS PEOPLE, UNDER A UPS UNION!!!!

APWA ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry, but I fail to see why I or any other intelligent UPSer should have to risk what we have because you can't plan your finances beyond next week. 20 years is plenty of time to save for a good retirment for yourself. You could probably do just as well or better than your pension, but alas you don't want to think that far ahead for yourself. You would rather put your future in the hands of an unproven organization that promises the world but doesn't know how it will deliver.

 

[wildgoose]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

I'm sorry, but I fail to see why I or any other intelligent UPSer should have to risk what we have because you can't plan your finances beyond next week. 20 years is plenty of time to save for a good retirment for yourself. You could probably do just as well or better than your pension, but alas you don't want to think that far ahead for yourself. You would rather put your future in the hands of an unproven organization that promises the world but doesn't know how it will deliver.

As opposed to proven organization that is incompetent with pension duties ? Its time for an unproven but with a better plan than the proven with no plan other than leaning on the government for bail out plans that they don`t want to get involved in ? Time for a change - can`t do any worse than the proven guys ?

 

[Zypher22]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

I'm sorry, but I fail to see why I or any other intelligent UPSer should have to risk what we have because you can't plan your finances beyond next week. 20 years is plenty of time to save for a good retirment for yourself. You could probably do just as well or better than your pension, but alas you don't want to think that far ahead for yourself. You would rather put your future in the hands of an unproven organization that promises the world but doesn't know how it will deliver.

LMAO, let me get this straight, here you are saying that you don't care if the teamsters screw over your pension you just want to stick with them to keep your industry leading hourly rate and great benefits......

 

[govols019]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

He's saying that there's more to this than just the pension issue. It's really not that hard to understand.

 

[nospinzone]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

He's saying that there's more to this than just the pension issue. It's really not that hard to understand.

I agree...it is more than just the pension. It's also about the divided attention/service that IBT because they have to provide services to Yellow, Carhaulers, Roadway.... Grievances cannot be argued on a timely manner in areas because the BA has to split his time with the other companies. The transparency of how the IBT operates is as clear as the mississipi. Our ability to effect change during the election is diluted by the other non-UPS voices. I agree. It is more than just about the pension.

 

[brett636]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

I agree...it is more than just the pension. It's also about the divided attention/service that IBT because they have to provide services to Yellow, Carhaulers, Roadway.... Grievances cannot be argued on a timely manner in areas because the BA has to split his time with the other companies. The transparency of how the IBT operates is as clear as the mississipi. Our ability to effect change during the election is diluted by the other non-UPS voices. I agree. It is more than just about the pension.

Funny you should say that. I've only filed 2 grievances in my time with the company, but both times they got taken care of in a timely manner. When I had trouble getting a grievance check I called my BA and it was NDA to my house. Yup, thats some poor service right there.

 

[brett636]

Re: APWA....the Evolution of Labor

LMAO, let me get this straight, here you are saying that you don't care if the teamsters screw over your pension you just want to stick with them to keep your industry leading hourly rate and great benefits......

Your exactly right. There are more items at stake than just the pension. With what we recieve in the form of wages in benefits we can do a lot for ourselves when it comes to retirment. Look at the world around us, big companies are not cutting pensions, they are freezing them. Fedex, IBM, and Hewlett Packard just to name a few. They aren't allowing new employees to earn a pension and their current employees are only going to get credit for the pension up the point that it was frozen. A cut here and there in pension funds, while its not great news, its not the end of the world. The 401k, IRAS, Mutual funds, and smart money management can create a better retirement than the best UPS pension fund. Its just too bad that some people don't want to think for themselves to create that better future. That is why the APWA plan sounds so appealing to those that don't know any better. Its only designed to appeal to the masses, not to help us create better futures.

 

[Bill]

sounds like snakeoil...

Thats the best you can do. At least I give facts and figures that can be verified. You, on the other hand, make a stupid statement. I'll let the other people out there reading this make an intelligent choice based on the facts, not on a stupid statement with nothing to back it up. You and people like yourself keep making these baseless statements. I have asked anyone out there to give me one good reason to stay with the Teamsters, but none of you can do this. Why do think this is? It is obvious to any intelligent person that there is not one valid reason to continue supporting a union that is enriching themselves off the hard working employees of UPS.

 

[Bill]

Engineer, I have full medical coverage with a copay of only 5 dollars for meds. Full dental and eyeglass care. In 8 years I will have 30 in with a monthly pension of 6100 dollars. I will be 55. If I take a popup of 400 dollars per month then my wife will receive 5700 dollars per month after I die until her death.

I have read the APWA`s proposals and have emailed them with several questions. I have yet to receive a answer.

I have no reason to join them and neither does the other people in our area.

Dorkhead, you have a great pension plan and benefits. I am not arguing that. I would love to have what are receiving, but unfortunately, most of the rest of the country are being hit with pension and medical cuts, and more cuts are inevitable in the future. In Central States, we took a 50% reduction in future pension contributions. We are told we can't retire until age 62 or 65 without further penalties. In the event of death, our spouse receives only 50% of the pension benefit only if she pays for survivor benfits. We both work for the same company, but your area of the country has far superior benefits than the rest of us. The western conference was 100% funded, yet they still were hit with a 30% reduction in their pension plan. They did not think it could happen to them, and now they are complaining too. It is just a matter of time before every fund takes a cut, including yours. All I am advocating is that all employees working for UPS should receive the same benefits. We all do the same job, so why are some people receiving more than others? There is an inequity here that needs to be corrected. We need one union and one pension plan for everyone. If you decided to go along with the APWA, your current level of benefits would be honored. You will be gaining security knowing that your money is guaranteed, whereas the Teamsters have shown that they will make cuts to any pension plan at any time.

 

[Bill]

sounds like snakeo

 

[Bill]

I was going to write a rebuttle post, but sweatyguy said in three words what I would have to say in 200 words. What you are failing miserably to understand is the burden of proof is not on me, but you and your APWA cronies. I am not the one advocating change of unions. I simply have to refer to the current master contract and show how nobody else in the world offers what we get. I only ask for you to prove to me that your solution will work. Show me where someone in the APWA has negotiated a contract with a company for a union. Show me the financial manager the APWA will use to manage our pensions. Finally, I want to see the APWA financial reports listing every source of income they recieve. Why does the APWA not want to release this information? What are they afraid of? Apparently this kind of information is so damaging that they don't want to risk releasing it.

I have looked at the times that you post your thoughts. They appear to be during the work week. Are you a business agent just looking out for your own best interests? Are you worried that the APWA might replace the Teamsters and you will stop receiving your big paycheck and pension benefits?
As for proving to you that the plan under the APWA will work, I have already done so by showing you the numbers, but you don't even bother to do the math yourself or have someone else do it for you if you can't follow along.
As for negotiating a contract, the Teamsters according to them, have given you the "best contract ever". Under the best contract, we have taken medical and pension cuts. If this is the best they can do, I don't want them negotiating future contracts for us. The Teamsters also have refused to open the books to show us what really is taking place behind the scenes. This is supposed to be public record.

I have posed this question to you and every one else reading Browncafe. What is the reason to continue to remain with the Teamsters? Please don't tell me it is because of years of experience negotiating contracts. I already dispelled that in the above paragraph.

 

[Bill]

The biggest obstacle you APWA supporters face is the fact that all pension funds are not created equal. The second obstacle is you cannot promise any of the numbers you are putting out there. Engineer, you say your numbers are factual. Okay I'll believe you. And lets say you actually suceed and overthrow the Teamsters. What guarentee can you give me that UPS would agree to the same numbers in a contract negoiation. There is none. UPS makes you a final offer not even close to those numbers. What are you going to do, strike? Even Hoffa knows that won't work anymore. So many young guys in so much debt. People would be crossing the picket lines in droves.
My pension fund still has both 25 and 30 and out at any age. We are in the UPS health care system which is bascially sounds like the same plan Dorkhead mentioned. We can retire at the age of 50 and keep the same plan we have now with UPS for 50.00 a month. While employed by UPS my cost is 0. I plan on retiring shortly at 3600.00 a month at age 55 with 32 years of full time service. I've been in the Teamster-UPS 401k plan since it's inception and have done quite well. I won't give you my number but is way above the average fund number.
I work in a major east coast hub that houses 4 package car centers, approx 60 senority drivers in each ctr. plus a fulltime feeder list of 110 drivers. Who knows how many partimers. We run pretty much 24/7. I can honestly say to you no one has heard of the APWA. While I'll admit local Teamster meetings are not heavily attended those who do are involved. This years election will have at least 2 slates running with some independent canidates.
You obviously believe in what you're doing and I admire that but I believe if you spent as much energy attending your local meetings and try to make changes there your time would be better spent. You certainly give me the impression that you're an intelligent guy who could defend hinself. I really have no interest in the APWA at all. Even if you were sucessful the process you are talking about would take years. And you certainly can't promise me a thing. But, hey, I still wish you good luck.
I apolgize for some of my spelling and computer skills. Neither are very good.

Everything being equal, what guarantee does the Teamsters have that UPS will continue to place 1.3 billion dollars a year into their coffers. Afterall, UPS employees are only receiving 40% of the money in Central States. Why should UPS continue to fund other companies pensions? At least with the APWA, all the money will be distributed to UPS employees and their families. During the contract negotiations (assuming the Teamsters are still around), the Teamsters will ask UPS for more money. UPS will in all probability tell them to take a hike. It doesn't make sense from the company or employee standpoint to continue down this road.
You are lucky to be in the same position as Dorkhead. Please refer to the remarks I made to him in my previous post. Unfortunately, we are all not in that position. I admire your honesty and would appreciate it if others did the same. As for a transition time of years to replace the Teamsters, that is not true. I called the NLRB and asked some questions concerning the procedure for replacing the Teamsters. The response I received was thus: First, 30% of UPS employees have to sign a petition to remove the Teamsters. This is not going to be an easy task. If this is achieved, the NLRB will hold an election between the Teamsters and the APWA. If the APWA is declared the winner, they take over immediately. There is no truth to the propaganda that the Teamsters are spreading that we will be without a union for a year.

 

[Bill]

Brett, it's no use. I've tried. I've asked Eng to answer questions too but he dissappears when cornered. Exam?:

A few threads ago, he lambasted a BA that is also a City Councilman in a FL city. To cut to the chase, I asked him to PROVE his accusations against this councilman. All he can say is, "They're ALL corrupt" or "They ALL take extra money" or "They all work when they should be doing Teamster work". I merely, quite a few times I might add, asked if he would PROVE these times, money, effort, etc. Nothing yet. I concluded it's no use making an effort to answer his barbs, yes, BARBS, cuz he also called me naive.

I am not going to give my time to someone that can only bad-mouth then turn. Brett, I'm on your side, I just advise you to do the same and let him continue to enlighten the gullible.

raceanoncr, I have already proved to you about this BA. If you go to the website, City of Hialeah Gardens. and bother to look under the councilmen, click on Roly Pina, you will see a picture of him and his story. It doesn't matter what I say to you or your pro Teamsters who follow blindly without taking the time to look at both sides of the issues. Why not ask some of the other people reading these posts what their thought are. Let's hear from people other than the usual bunch. I give you facts that can be verified, you give me baseless statements.

 

[Bill]

I've come to that same conclusion some time ago. He can only rant on topics he doesn't fully understand, and avoids having to answer any questions because quite simply he cannot. Although I am amused that his family has nothing else better to talk about at the dinner table than the teamster retirement funds. I'm going to add him to my ignore list soon because this is wasting my valuable time responding to his pointless posts. I would just hate for some newbie to stumble into one of his posts and unwittingly buy his snakeoil not knowing the full story.

Brett, I have answered all your questions, but you continue to avoid the issues. You keep asking to prove this or that. I have done so, but you will never be satisfied. I am much more knowledgeable and educated than you will ever be. I never said that we sat around the dinner table, but the conversation did come up and was discussed with people with far more intelligence than yourself. Unless you have a Phd in finance, I don't think I can take you seriously.
You used the same line about a snake oil salesman that someone else used previously. This is just another example of you following. Can't you come up with your own thoughts?

 

[Bill]

First of all, Keep in mind I agree overall with your premise that the pension isn't what it should be due to multiple factors. However, I would disagree with the notion that the numbers are factual and can not be disputed. I'm disputing one main point. You are assuming that every year for the last 30 years the contribution rate was $11,128/yr. It hasn't been. As time has gone by the contribution rate has increased. I don't know what it's been each year but that. Pensions weren't designed so that people make way more in retirement then working. It doesn't make sense for someone to make 300K as a payout and still make 7K a month or 84K per year. However, what is being offered in a payout is way less then it should be.

The only way for your numbers to be true is saying what will happen in 30 years (again assuming that there is no increase in the pension contribution). However, in 30 years will 1.2 million be worth what it is now?

You are the first person to actually think this through. Congratulations. Here is the history of UPS contributions from 1974 through the present. In 1974, UPS contributed $19.50 per week per employee into the pension fund. In the following years, UPs paid out $22,25,28,31,41,46,etc until presently at $214 per week. In August 1, 2008 the number will go up again. There has never been a decrease. UPS contributions over this 30 year period (1974-2003)was $130,130. Lets take the average income fund in America over this same period and add the UPS contribution, reinvested annual dividends, reinvested annual capital gains distributions. The total would be $688,288. This would be more than enough to fund a measly pension of $3000 per month that the Teamsters can not give some of us because of other obligations. Under the APWA, they would not have these obligations, thus rewarding us with the full potential of the pension fund. At the current rate of contributions on UPS behalf, we would all have over $1,200,000 with which to draw a secure pension. The Teamsters are offering $3500 a month pension if you work an 35 years until the year 2042. What will $3500 be worth in 2042? At least the APWA wants a cost of living increase built into the pension, the Teamsters make no mention of it. I hope I have clarified this. If not, feel free to ask additional questions. I don't mind taking the time to answer you, but some of you out there are making baseless insinuations without any knowledge other than what you hear form the Teamsters. Think for yourself, do the math, then make an intelligent decision after weighing both sides of the issues.

 

[Bill]

Engineer,
Our dental and eyeglass coverage are covered 100% , our co-pay is $5.00 and out meds are $3.00.Our pension is underfunded at this moment, but we still have our 25 and out intact. I am all about listening to new things and possible trying out something new, but you know what?
I went to their web and I was not at all impressed. Show me something that will catch my eye and I will see you. Tell me something I want to hear and I will listen you.

Ps I think I am the only one in NY that even heard of APWA. I have asked about 30 people and they have no clue what I am talking about.

Didn't you just take a cut? We had the same thing at one time, but have taken severe cuts, and lost the 25,30 and out option to retire. It is just a matter of time before you lose some of the benefits that you once enjoyed. Then we will see your tune change.

 

[Bill]

I`m in Canada and nobody here has heard of them either,except me I guess,all I know is that we are making about$3 less an hour than you guys,and the teamsters
never did anything for me except take my money.I want
to see a change.I also agree that this could take a few years.
Oldupsman said it best,pension funds vary from state to state
and a driver that is going to retire in 5 years will have to be sure he will get what he`s entitled to under the APWA.Why would he take the chance? He wont.Thats why its going to
be a long road for them unless they answer all the questions.
This is a good thread,lots of good questions about what really matters in our future.

Please refer to post #58