Christianity

[FromOffTheStreets]

How many times would you say the Bible says that Christians are to put on immortality? Paul wrote, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53). The millennial speculators have a problem here with just how many times this takes place.
Hal Lindsay said this is a mystery but takes place at the imaginary "Rapture". His theory is that the saints will be in the "Rapture" with Christ in immortal bodies that are spiritual bodies, glorious bodies, not affected by the pain and discomforts of a physical body.
Millennialists can hardly write two paragraphs or speak five minutes without getting themselves into all sorts of difficulties with their speculations. Lindsay also wrote about the return of Christ "with" His saints to set up this also imaginary millennial kingdom.
He said, "Third, Christ establishes the millennial kingdom and the surviving believers go into it as mortals and repopulate the earth" They were immortal as believers in the "Rapture" and now after the establishment of this alleged "millennium" they go in as mortals. What happens when the millennium ends? Your guess is just as good as Lindsay's or anyone elses.
The fact is that there is no such thing as either "Rapture," "Armageddon," or "the Millennium." It is a grand hoax.

I can't say that I agree with all the millennial ideas, but there are pieces of scripture that they pull it from & it can get pretty elaborate.
It's like I've told you from the beginning, people (even yourself) find verses & build entire theologies off of them.

 

[BrownFlush]

Jesus was "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world." That was always the plan.
The jews thought the messiah would be an earthly ruler because of many O.T. prophecies, not a sacrifice. They rejected the sacrifice & were cut off.

3000 were not in Acts 2. As the Kingdom (the Church) would begin in Jerusalem as prophesied. More would be added later and Gentiles would also after the conversion of Cornelias in Acts 10.

Do you suspect the millennial reign in revelation 20 & some portions of Isaiah are only "spiritual"?

Starting Revelation questions in chapter 20 is not a good idea. But, I understand why you did. The false doctrine of premillennialism is based on this chapter. Why are you looking for exactly the same thing the Jews were 2000 years ago? A physical earthly kingdom?
"Only" spiritual? The kingdom which you seek will never come. Christ's spiritual kingdom already is here and has existed for 2000 years.

The saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever (Dan. 7:17-18)
As you have time, read Isaiah 2:1-4, 9:1-7, Micah 3:9-4:8, and Zechariah 8:20-23. This kingdom, ruled by the Son of David, would be the most powerful kingdom ever and would be eternal.
That kingdom had its beginning. That kingdom has a King. He rules now at the right hand of God.
I'm in it. Are you?​

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,"-(Col.1:13) Can't be in something that doesn't exist.

 

[BrownFlush]

I can't say that I agree with all the millennial ideas, but there are pieces of scripture that they pull it from & it can get pretty elaborate.
It's like I've told you from the beginning, people (even yourself) find verses & build entire theologies off of them.

Well..what anybody and everybody comes up with is just fine, right? Why waste time rightly dividing the truth? Go with what you want or what they "built an entire theology" on.
I like what Jesus asked the Pharisees. Talking about the baptism of John. He wanted to know, was it from heaven or men? In other words by what authority or where did that authority come from?
That's a good question. Is what I believe and teach based on something men have come with or what is supported by the Word (authority) of God?

 

[El Correcto]

Well..what anybody and everybody comes up with is just fine, right? Why waste time rightly dividing the truth? Go with what you want or what they "built an entire theology" on.
I like what Jesus asked the Pharisees. Talking about the baptism of John. He wanted to know, was it from heaven or men? In other words by what authority or where did that authority come from?
That's a good question. Is what I believe and teach based on something men have come with or what is supported by the Word (authority) of God?

Everything you believe and teach is based on something “men have come with”…
The entire Bible is something “men have come with”.

Now quit being ridiculous and get it together Tommy.

 

[BrownFlush]

Everything you believe and teach is based on something “men have come with”…
The entire Bible is something “men have come with”.

Now quit being ridiculous and get it together Tommy.

Men never "came up" with anything in Scripture.
"knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God what the Holy Spirit told them to speak and write..."- 2 Peter 1:20-21

 

[Box Ox]

Everything you believe and teach is based on something “men have come with”…

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

3000 were not in Acts 2. As the Kingdom (the Church) would begin in Jerusalem as prophesied. More would be added later and Gentiles would also after the conversion of Cornelias in Acts 10.

Starting Revelation questions in chapter 20 is not a good idea. But, I understand why you did. The false doctrine of premillennialism is based on this chapter. Why are you looking for exactly the same thing the Jews were 2000 years ago? A physical earthly kingdom?
"Only" spiritual? The kingdom which you seek will never come. Christ's spiritual kingdom already is here and has existed for 2000 years.

The saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever (Dan. 7:17-18)
As you have time, read Isaiah 2:1-4, 9:1-7, Micah 3:9-4:8, and Zechariah 8:20-23. This kingdom, ruled by the Son of David, would be the most powerful kingdom ever and would be eternal.
That kingdom had its beginning. That kingdom has a King. He rules now at the right hand of God.
I'm in it. Are you?​

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,"-(Col.1:13) Can't be in something that doesn't exist.

I only bring up revelation 20 because it literally talks about a future millennial kingdom. Then in chapter 21 it talks about a new heaven and a new earth.

Is Satan bound right now? Or Is he still working in the sons of disobedience?

Is this section off limits for the preterist/amillenialists?

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

Well..what anybody and everybody comes up with is just fine, right? Why waste time rightly dividing the truth? Go with what you want or what they "built an entire theology" on.
I like what Jesus asked the Pharisees. Talking about the baptism of John. He wanted to know, was it from heaven or men? In other words by what authority or where did that authority come from?
That's a good question. Is what I believe and teach based on something men have come with or what is supported by the Word (authority) of God?

The disciples believed he was returning,
Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And gathering,
Matt 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You believed this all happened in 70 AD & Satan is bound?

 

[BrownFlush]

I only bring up revelation 20 because it literally talks about a future millennial kingdom.

No, it doesn't. Literally? You sure about that?

Then in chapter 21 it talks about a new heaven and a new earth.

What is that?

Is Satan bound right now? Or Is he still working in the sons of disobedience?

If Satan is bound in a pit today and not walking about like a lion, then why is 1 Timothy 3:7 still a requirement for elders? "lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."...Why are we will wearing the whole armor of God? We know from the rest of the Bible that, whatever these verses in Revelation 20 mean, they do not mean that Satan is not at work in this world today and still trying to destroy the church. He is still active today.

Is this section off limits for the preterist/amillenialists?

I can't speak for the preterist, but there isn't any section of scripture "off limits" to me.
The scripture no where teaches a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus.

What was the reason/purpose for John's writing to the seven churches? What was going on with first century Christians? What was the world power doing to Christians?

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

Well..what anybody and everybody comes up with is just fine, right? Why waste time rightly dividing the truth? Go with what you want or what they "built an entire theology" on.
I like what Jesus asked the Pharisees. Talking about the baptism of John. He wanted to know, was it from heaven or men? In other words by what authority or where did that authority come from?
That's a good question. Is what I believe and teach based on something men have come with or what is supported by the Word (authority) of God?

It's not all right. I'm just pointing out that you do exactly what others do.

 

[BrownFlush]

The disciples believed he was returning,
Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And gathering,
Matt 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You believed this all happened in 70 AD & Satan is bound?

Notice the questions asked. Jesus answers them. They thought if the temple would be destroyed it would be the end of the world.
Everything the Lord said would happen came to pass in that generation.(V34) What was he talking about up until that verse? The destruction of Jerusalem .
After V34.."that day" he talks about his second coming, the world will be torched, and the Judgement Day will begin.

 

[BrownFlush]

It's not all right. I'm just pointing out that you do exactly what others do.

I wouldn't say exactly at all.

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

No, it doesn't. Literally? You sure about that?

What is that?

If Satan is bound in a pit today and not walking about like a lion, then why is 1 Timothy 3:7 still a requirement for elders? "lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."...Why are we will wearing the whole armor of God? We know from the rest of the Bible that, whatever these verses in Revelation 20 mean, they do not mean that Satan is not at work in this world today and still trying to destroy the church. He is still active today.

I can't speak for the preterist, but there isn't any section of scripture "off limits" to me.
The scripture no where teaches a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus.

What was the reason/purpose for John's writing to the seven churches? What was going on with first century Christians? What was the world power doing to Christians?

Revelation 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You can't understand why someone could read this & not believe that Christ will reign for a thousand years & Satan will not be bound?

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

Notice the questions asked. Jesus answers them. They thought if the temple would be destroyed it would be the end of the world.
Everything the Lord said would happen came to pass in that generation.(V34) What was he talking about up until that verse? The destruction of Jerusalem .
After V34.."that day" he talks about his second coming, the world will be torched, and the Judgement Day will begin.

I agree that a lot of it was 70 ad. But I don't believe he gathered his elect from the earth in 70 ad.
Still, he as well as the disciples believed he was returning & "every eye will see him". That hasn't happened yet

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

No, it doesn't. Literally? You sure about that?

What is that?

If Satan is bound in a pit today and not walking about like a lion, then why is 1 Timothy 3:7 still a requirement for elders? "lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."...Why are we will wearing the whole armor of God? We know from the rest of the Bible that, whatever these verses in Revelation 20 mean, they do not mean that Satan is not at work in this world today and still trying to destroy the church. He is still active today.

I can't speak for the preterist, but there isn't any section of scripture "off limits" to me.
The scripture no where teaches a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus.

What was the reason/purpose for John's writing to the seven churches? What was going on with first century Christians? What was the world power doing to Christians?

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Another one to think about

 

[BrownFlush]

. That hasn't happened yet

That's right.
1 Corinthians 15 will happen also when the Lord returns. Not a thousand year reign.

 

[BrownFlush]

I agree that a lot of it was 70 ad.

All of it was up to V34

 

[BrownFlush]

Revelation 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You can't understand why someone could read this & not believe that Christ will reign for a thousand years & Satan will not be bound?

I can't understand why someone could read this and believe it is literal given why John wrote the Revelation, how it was written, the purpose it was written, not to mention that a literal translation of this would contradict a zillion passages in the New Testament.
The book of Revelation is like a giant jigsaw puzzle, and when you lose sight of the overall picture, you lose sight of the very key to understanding the book itself. All the details of every example may not ever be fully comprehended by anyone, but I do believe that the basic general picture of Revelation can be understood. I also believe the many false theories can be easily seen and understood.
Revelation, by its very nature, was not designed to be interpreted literally, as can be easily seen by anyone who sits down to actually read it. John affirms in Rev. 1:1 that it was sent and "signified"-a term which means to speak in signs or symbols ( not literal, but figurative). Such symbolic language is common.. from the parables, illustrations in John 10, the Lord's Supper the bread and fruit of the vine are symbolic.

What was the reason/purpose for John's writing to the seven churches? What was going on with first century Christians? What was the world power doing to Christians?

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

What was the reason/purpose for John's writing to the seven churches? What was going on with first century Christians? What was the world power doing to Christians?

The time was close, persecution.

Many people believe it was written after 70 ad though, like around 90 ad.

I read a book that went through revelation verse by verse and had 4 different perspectives; amillenial, premillenial, historical, & spiritual. Each "side" made sense to me & helped me to understand that I can't just dig into my set position & cast everyone else off.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[BrownFlush]

The time was close, persecution.

Many people believe it was written after 70 ad though, like around 90 ad.

I read a book that went through revelation verse by verse and had 4 different perspectives; amillenial, premillenial, historical, & spiritual. Each "side" made sense to me & helped me to understand that I can't just dig into my set position & cast everyone else off.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The time was persecution. They were killing Christians . Nero was hanging them on crosses , lighting them on fire so as to light up his garden at night.
The book was written to encourage Christians living in that time to not deny Christ. Do not worship Caesar. It may mean your death, it may mean you will be marked and you or your family will not be able to get a job or buy food at the market.
The greatest world power ever, Rome, is doing battle and trying to destroy the greatest spiritual kingdom ever, the church.
No matter how bad it looks, no matter how much you suffer, the Church will be victorious. Stay faithful. The greatness of Rome is no more. The eternal kingdom, the Church, still stands, and will forever.
What would John Kennedy, Stalin, Hitler, (all have been the "Man Of Sin) raptor fighter jets, Russia, China, if this happens in the Middle East 2000 years from now this is what that means, do to help and encourage first century Christians in the seven churches of Asia? Answer: Absolutely nothing.
As to the date of the writing.. I lean more to the 90AD most of the time.