The answers you seek are in the many previous posts of mine and those of others here who actually wieghed towards my points. Those you have chosen to ignore and thus you have denied yourself the education you ask for. You chose to take the opposite position in this debate simply to be the opposite debater.
I haven't chosen to ignore any of your postings or anyone else’s, when you ignore something you can't offer contrary opinion, because you haven't read the other persons post-you've ignored it. I reread every post in this thread, each of my postings is a reply to another posting, most of them are yours. My contributions are remarkably like the others - complete with my interpretation of events, solutions offered, objectives discussed.
You may not agree with my viewpoint, I certainly don't agree with yours in many instances, but just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I haven't made some valid points. Some people have agreed with my contributions in this thread, what are you saying about their ability to develop a sound argument?
Listen Tie, you can hang anything you want on the simple fact that I asked you to shed some light on the lunch issue - An explanation of some of the nuances that you alluded to in an earlier post would have been sufficient, or, you can do what you usually do, twist the issue of a direct question into one of semantics and avoid the question altogether - placing the emphasis of your argument on something other than the direct question at hand.
Here is the difference. I know that when I post something that it may fall under scrutiny - I am okay with that, I am able to defend my arguments for the most part, and I don't lose confidence in myself when someone absolutely rips my argument to bleeding shreds. I have learned much from picking up the pieces over the years, you can too, give it a shot.
In the process you have come across as a very negative sounding management person. If you really believe as negatively as you have presented yourself here then you should in fact be a strong proponent of unionism since you will need them to protect you from those management folks who do not share your depressing view on events.
Negative is not always bad. Negative very often means looking at reality, and recognizing the situation at hand, the human equation that exists in that situation, and offering a solution. Often that solution is ugly, a huge step backward, and will be very painful for everyone involved, but at least it is not sweeping it under the rug.
People are much smarter than we give them credit for-where there is smoke there is fire, why insult someone’s intelligence? most of us have worked here for a long time, we know the drill. There is no way a company of this size is always right-It just aint happenin'
Instead you called for ups breaking the union. While I can agree with you that being a union shop offers us some competitive challenges I believe that the act of "breaking the union" would destroy this company. Were you to understand labor issues as well as you claim then you would see the folly in taking such a stance.
Again, a huge jump of faith. I don't claim to understand labor issues well at all. Point to any sentence in any of my postings where I make such an egregious claim. I have said that I understand the rules of the contract, and my opinion is that we cannot compete on a union platform, period.
Does that differ from your opinion, yes, would you care to actually tell us why you think that it is folly? because I'll tell you what I will do, I'll debate that very point with you.
We’ll see who can keep their emotions in check, use elements of the persuasive, and develop a sound argument using the time tested rudiments of good old fashioned style, syntax and creative language to carry the day.
I therefore see issues in which you propose to take a position that is not well thought out or that are taken out of ignorance. You then demand I educate you otherwise.
I am human, I have many things that I have not thought out, less so as I grow older, but I am far from ignorant and I have never proposed to take any position-I have just taken it, conviction is not one of my shortcomings.
I have never demanded anything of you, much less that you educate me.
You can hang things on semantics if you will, your calling card has always been fragments of thoughts, pregnant with provoking innuendo, but I prefer to deal in actual debate, reasonable human discourse - regarding real issues, tangible results, and above all spirited, theoretical argument.
Once I respond you then choose to ignore that education and again respond with the same questions in a tiresome effort to win the message board debate by attrition or submission rather then by presenting sound logic.
I always attach logic to my thoughts, you may not agree with it, but if you look at my postings I think that you will see that I often include pertinent examples, thought provoking analogies and very often I will ask a questions of the forum. All of those are tenets of logic. All of the aforementioned are directly related to the post that I am replying to. They may differ from your “education” -take that “education” to task, or dismiss it as folly, but as is evidence in this entire post - where I am replying directly to your thoughts, I think it can be safe to say I am not ignoring your “education” I just flat don’t agree with it.
As far as winning a debate? Debates are never won by logic or reason, they are won as court cases are - by words. The element of style, grace in language, and the ability to capture the attention of the reader.
As Mark Twain once said, The difference between the right word and almost the right word, is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.
The fact is that your participation on this board tends to increase when I am the catalyst. This leads me to believe your positions are not thought out and simply provided to rebut whatever position I take here.
Yeah... good observation, catalyst by its very definition gets something started, why would you believe that if you are a catalyst that it would not spark debate, it does, lots! Why would I not enter this debate, I do, like most others who respond to your spark.
Here is a good opportunity for you Tie, you make a declarative statement here, "This leads me to believe your positions are not thought out and simply provided to rebut whatever position I take here."
I'll respond- Why do think that? What about your viewpoint, conjecture, opinions and thoughts makes you think that I don't develop my arguments. Can you point to specific postings that, while they differ in opinion than yours, are not well written, soundly developed, or based in the tenets of logic-complete with analogy, example, and occasional fact?
If you read the above reply, I think it will demonstrate that I do put thought into what I post, especially when I am replying to one of your posts. The above stanza is a direct reply to one of your statements, can you support your original statement / argument (This leads me to believe your positions are not thought out and simply provided to rebut whatever position I take here.") with similar structure? It would be an interesting thread.
I realize this puts me into a position of egoism but I think your track record will prove me right. I really wish you would find some other poster you could become infatuated with and take me off this pedestal you have placed me on.
Message boards are funny birds, if you post on them you can expect that people will read what you say, offer opinion, tear your arguments limb from limb, agree with you, add your sentiment here, all of the above, etc.
Walk a mile in my shoes, can I ask the same of you or anyone else? No. If you don't like it - don't post-I didn't make the rules, that is just the way it is.
Well, did I just blindly respond to your thoughts, I don’t think so, but lets open it up to the forum, what do some others think?
