Could. How about in terms of Dick Cheney?
Elections
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Sounds a bit Freudian actually.
Freedom and liberty can only move forward if the people choose a moral and ethical approach to life itself. And it does start with yourself first and foremost. When the people abandon morals and ethics, tyranny and centralization of control come into play. A central state is obvious proof of moral and ethical behaviour having been abandoned and as the state grows, man's decline from morality and ethics speeds up. Man tolerates force and violence on others to get his own way and it's much easier to shed the responsibility to others, especially when they have the power of the gun, rather than taking responsibility upon yourself and figuring out how to live and work with other people yourself. Better to just have the state agent point the gun and tell them for you.
There is some truth to the idea that true freedom is an illusion, in fact a lot of truth and that man hasn't evolved yet to see and understand it. Some argue we've evolved out of true freedom but then you get into an arguement of creature comforts verses a type of very primitive Luddism and neither arguement IMO goes to the heart of the matter. Political freedom and economic freedom are a part of the equation but real freedom is vastly beyond these 2 constructs and very few if even any of us are really ready for such ventures.
tieguy
Banned
LOL , touche
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that it's only in some form of religion that ethics and morality can be found? If so, being you only mentioned Sharia and Christianity, 2/3rds of the Abrahamic tradition, why did you leave out Judaism which ironically in the historical timeline is much older and in fact the parent of the first 2 mentioned? What about all the other religions, are you making a judgement they have no moral and ethics to offer? What about Deists? Atheists? Because they either don't believe in a sky god at all or believe different, does this mean they lack no morals or ethics that might come into the conversation? More importantly, the real question that begs here, are there moral and ethical positions that seems to transcend across all faiths of men no matter who or what they believe lives up in the sky?
And on a completely different note, if you honestly believe that someone has you on ignore, why even respond to them in the first place?
Besides, why tempt fate when life is realized to be so much better!
I do not for a moment believe morality is evident only in religion. I used fundamentalist examples of Islam and Christianity only to accentuate the vast array of moral codes. Would any one moral code be suffice for the vastness that is the US? Fill in the blank. Judaism, Wicca, Catholic, Hindu, Satanism, what difference does it make? None will fit all.
And on a completely different note, I respond to Tie because on the off chance that someone quotes me, Tie is "forced" to see the text. There was a somewhat humorous occurance some time ago when Upstate "replied with quote" and Tie was horribly insulted. Kinda funny really.
And on a completely different note, I respond to Tie because on the off chance that someone quotes me, Tie is "forced" to see the text. There was a somewhat humorous occurance some time ago when Upstate "replied with quote" and Tie was horribly insulted. Kinda funny really.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
I thought this was the case but I had to bring it up just to make sure. As for what morals, there is at least IMO a basic moral thread that runs through most all societies and cultures that is also common to all. Murder, theft and lying for example are all considered wrongs and the overwhelming vast majority of people across the planet, if you asked them would tend to agree. So in that respect, there exists within man a common moral thread already and imo a great starting basis from which to work.
Different peoples would point to some concept from within their own cultures to express this idea but it's general thrust would still be common to all. For me, I've found what is known as the Non-Aggression Principle or Axiom to express that idea but others have formulas very similar and call them by other names. And as I said, it may go by different names but the same basic premise of don't murder, don't steal and don't lie are well known and well believed concepts. Also the Golden Rule ideal is seen across mankind and so is the "love they neighbor as thyself" principle.
As for so-called Satanism, most true Satanist are not out committing murder, theft or fraud as such but in many a sense are just acting on a belief that god if you will is within them. I don't believe in the bronze age Zoroastrian myth of a fallen angel that rules the world of evil or is some form of anti-god and for the most part, neither do these guys either. At least not in the traditional sense most people think of. Yet within their sphere of belief seems to be a common connection in form to the don't murder, don't lie, don't steal so once you get past "the weirdness" if you will, seems to me a discussion of morals and ethics from a simple basis would prove just as productive with a Satanist as it would be with anyone else, even one of the chritian faith for example if you want to pull a name out of the hat.
And Wiccanism or witchcraft as many apply the name to this faith was wrongly and falsely associated with so-called Satanism or Satan worship by the excesses of the christian church not only long ago but even up into today. And some christian faiths today assert any other belief other than their own is Satanic so there you go. As in the case of a Satanist, I still see no reason that the earlier premise of moral and ethical concepts are violated as a group by Wiccans. So now we have a somewhat lose basis of moral agreement between the judeo-christian or the Abrahamic traditions and the Satanist and Wiccans so what might that say for our discussing going forward? Does pose an interesting thought IMO!
I never said any of us were perfect at this but the idea that these basic ideals are shared does make one wonder what causes us to so grossly violate what we all seem to hold in such high regard! Hmmmmmmm!
I never meant to characterize Wiccanism iwth Satainism whatsoever. In fact, I read portions of LaVey's "Satanic Bible", but really wasn't that impressed. Basically it said to me, "If it feels good, do it and screw everyone else." Again that was a very loose and uninspired reading of his work. I may have missed the point completely. In fact I had LaVey in mind when speaking of a mad man's self absorbed moral code.
Now if a society were able to have a shared value system, and those in government did not abuse their power, that would indeed be wonderful. I'm just not convinced that those two criteria can be met to the degree necessary to bring about any real modicum of true justice.
Now if a society were able to have a shared value system, and those in government did not abuse their power, that would indeed be wonderful. I'm just not convinced that those two criteria can be met to the degree necessary to bring about any real modicum of true justice.
trplnkl
555
I believe that some time in history there were places where people lived that had never heard of any of the "religions" that we have today, yet those people still had a moral compass that guided what they did and how they treated each other, otherwise the communities would have never survived. I suppose there could have been many that didn't survive by not having that compass. I have never felt religion and morality were mutually exclusive, obviously they are not.
bbsam, if society were able to have a shared value(moral/ethic) system, there would be no need for a government to abuse power.
WK's assertion of shared global moral basics, I don't disagree. The organized religions and governments deciding what to do about anyone violating those morals is what creates the differences. IMHO.
bbsam, if society were able to have a shared value(moral/ethic) system, there would be no need for a government to abuse power.
WK's assertion of shared global moral basics, I don't disagree. The organized religions and governments deciding what to do about anyone violating those morals is what creates the differences. IMHO.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Very good points trplnkl! I think your point about organized religions and govt's making the rules on policing morals is a very good point even moreso. Thanks for chiming in on the subject!
You didn't characterize Wiccanism with Satanism (at least IMO you didn't) I added that just because a lot of people still make that leap but at the same time I did want to seperate them for this discussion because I also wanted to point out that both did indeed hold some level of moral compass while being mutually exclusive to one another.
Lavey IMO was as much showman and salesman as he was a religious leader. Not only did he get more that 15 minutes of fame but he seemed to derive a pretty good living from it all as well. If the one sky god has his hucksters, does it not stand to reason that the anti sky god would have his?
As to the comment about society and gov't having a shared value and not abusing power, IMO it could be possible but so far that Holy Grail seems a bit out of reach.
I don't know. Religion in some form or another seems to be a thread throughout history. I would be interested to hear of some cultures that did not have them but not sure what they would be. And "IF" is a huge word. In fact, society probably has shared values but they get distorted by the differences.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
I don't know if there is such a thing as a culture without religion. I've always seen science and religion as the same thing just using a different method to accomplish the same goal and that is explain why we are here, how we got here and where we are going. Along the way, also explain the miraculous that seems to defy natural occurances. Science IMO looked at from another perspective is a religion too as even a theory at some level requires a bit of faith to move it forward. Science not unlike religion can also promise some manner of utopian future if you follow it's precepts and yet so far most futures of each have been more dystopian than utopian IMO.
moreluck
golden ticket member
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