Gov healthcare

[Babagounj]

Already, it's estimated that two-thirds of the cost of reform can be paid for by reallocating money that is simply being wasted in federal health care programs. [/QUOTE]

Stop this waste, now.
Let's see what the "savings " are and then we'll talk about future plans.

 

[browndevil]

How about we all be proactive in our health. Start by eating right. Read labels, it shouldn't have more than five ingredients in it. Eat all the fruits and vegatables you want and can. It is still summer so lots are still in season. Try to eat foods closet to where you live. Less time for transportation is less preservatives and fuel consumption.
Eliminate fast food, it has no health impact, no soda sugary drinks limit your alchohol intake drink water, it lubricates your joints, good for your lungs and cleanses your system And smoking, you know the answer there.
After all this take a nice walk with your spouse and dog, very good for yor blood pressure.
Our children are getting diseases they shouldn't until their 40s, if ever, high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesteral.
My point is to think of health care as preventative medicine. Then maybe we will live heathlier and our need to seek medical care outside of yearly physicals will be at a mininum

 

[klein]

Conservatives refuse to accept responsibilities as the new Administration rescues this economy from a full-blown crisi. And health insurance reform is central to that effort.
This is not just about the 47 million Americans who have no health insurance. Reform is about every American who has ever feared that they may lose their coverage if they become too sick, or lose their job, or change their job. It’s about every small business that has been forced to lay off employees or cut back on their coverage because it became too expensive. And it’s about the fact that the biggest driving force behind our federal deficit is the skyrocketing cost of Medicare and Medicaid.

If we do not control these costs, we will not be able to control our deficit. If we do not reform health care, your premiums and out-of-pocket costs will continue to skyrocket. If we don’t act, 14,000 Americans will continue to lose their health insurance every single day. These are the consequences of inaction. These are the stakes of the debate we’re having right now.

No matter what BS you here from the Right, Health insurance reform will not add to our deficit over the next decade. In the past eight years, Republicans enacted two tax cuts, primarily for the wealthiest Americans, and a Medicare prescription program, none of which were paid for. That’s partly for the $1.3 trillion deficit.

That will not happen with health insurance reform. It will be paid for. Already, it's estimated that two-thirds of the cost of reform can be paid for by reallocating money that is simply being wasted in federal health care programs. This includes over one hundred billion dollars of unwarranted subsidies that go to insurance companies as part of Medicare

You know, I agree with you Diesel.
You can't keep throwing good money into bad money.
If that (healthcare) was a business, it would have long been out of business. But, the goverment keeps putting more and more into it.
It'll eventually collapes, if no action is taken.

Just like the Big 3 Automakers pension plan.
Last I heard, we'rent they paying more on pensions, then on wages ?

What good were those yearly statements, saying you'll receive this amount of pension, and at the end, nothing is left ?

It will eventually come to that with healthcare... companies can overnight say, thats it, we can't afford it.
Tear up your card...(just like a credit card company will ask you to do, when it's overdrawn and out of money).

I really hope, you guys can fix it.
The sooner the better.

 

[av8torntn]

No matter what BS you here from the Right, Health insurance reform will not add to our deficit over the next decade.

Kindly explain this.

Zero does not even agree with you here. I do agree that the nutty types pushing this goofy plan should do as you do and start calling it health insurance reform since this plan does nothing for health care. I think that you claim that the government pumping trillions of dollars into the health care markets will not add to the deficit is a bit dishonest. I also find it interesting that you dimocrats who claim to be for the little man want to destroy the very best health care in the world.

We've all seen the dueling articles from the CBO I would like to know how you think this is possible.

 

[av8torntn]

Socialized Healthcare verses the Law of Economics

written by Economics Professor Tom DiLorenzo

This is an excellent lesson that applies to the current "helath care" debate going on today. Thanks


"Some years ago, the Nobel-laureate economist Milton Friedman studied the history of healthcare supply in America. In a 1992 study published by the Hoover Institution, entitled "Input and Output in Health Care," Friedman noted that 56 percent of all hospitals in America were privately owned and for-profit in 1910. After 60 years of subsidies for government-run hospitals, the number had fallen to about 10 percent. It took decades, but by the early 1990s government had taken over almost the entire hospital industry. That small portion of the industry that remains for-profit is regulated in an extraordinarily heavy way by federal, state and local governments so that many (perhaps most) of the decisions made by hospital administrators have to do with regulatory compliance as opposed to patient/customer service in pursuit of profit. It is profit, of course, that is necessary for private-sector hospitals to have the wherewithal to pay for healthcare."


And for Diesel


"Friedman's key conclusion was that, as with all governmental bureaucratic systems, government-owned or -controlled healthcare created a situation whereby increased "inputs," such as expenditures on equipment, infrastructure, and the salaries of medical professionals, actually led to decreased "outputs" in terms of the quantity of medical care. For example, while medical expenditures rose by 224 percent from 1965–1989, the number of hospital beds per 1,000 population fell by 44 percent and the number of beds occupied declined by 15 percent. Also during this time of almost complete governmental domination of the hospital industry (1944–1989), costs per patient-day rose almost 24-fold after inflation is taken into account."

 

[brett636]

Conservatives refuse to accept responsibilities as the new Administration rescues this economy from a full-blown crisi. And health insurance reform is central to that effort.
This is not just about the 47 million Americans who have no health insurance. Reform is about every American who has ever feared that they may lose their coverage if they become too sick, or lose their job, or change their job. It’s about every small business that has been forced to lay off employees or cut back on their coverage because it became too expensive. And it’s about the fact that the biggest driving force behind our federal deficit is the skyrocketing cost of Medicare and Medicaid.

If we do not control these costs, we will not be able to control our deficit. If we do not reform health care, your premiums and out-of-pocket costs will continue to skyrocket. If we don’t act, 14,000 Americans will continue to lose their health insurance every single day. These are the consequences of inaction. These are the stakes of the debate we’re having right now.

No matter what BS you here from the Right, Health insurance reform will not add to our deficit over the next decade. In the past eight years, Republicans enacted two tax cuts, primarily for the wealthiest Americans, and a Medicare prescription program, none of which were paid for. That’s partly for the $1.3 trillion deficit.

That will not happen with health insurance reform. It will be paid for. Already, it's estimated that two-thirds of the cost of reform can be paid for by reallocating money that is simply being wasted in federal health care programs. This includes over one hundred billion dollars of unwarranted subsidies that go to insurance companies as part of Medicare

You really should stop copying/pasting one of Obama's speeches on healthcare.

If you really believe this will not add to the federal deficit I have some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you. Government program costs are grossly understated, and tax revenues from new taxes will be overstated. Its always happened, and probably always will. For example, before the first prescription was filled under the Medicare prescription drug bill signed by President Bush the cost of the program had already tripled from its original $300 billion to close to $900 billion. When the government raises taxes to pay for programs like this the expected tax revenues and true tax revenues are different because people change their behavior in order to avoid the tax. Oh yea, and BTW, even the CBO has said this bill will not reduce healthcare costs. So the future deficit issues we face will not be any better than they are today. Don't be so niave when it comes to this. The government is no better at solving this issue than they are at running Social Security or Medicare. Its nothing more Obama and his democratic cronies attempt to gain control of nearly 18% of our economy and American livelihoods in the process.

 

[Jones]

Since Canada seems to be the focus, here's an article from another Canadian:
Debunking Canadian health care myths

 

[klein]

Since Canada seems to be the focus, here's an article from another Canadian:
Debunking Canadian health care myths

Here;s another fact they forgot:

I can't name or find or think of 1 single Canadian, that would trade our healthcare system, for that of the American one.
Besides, it's twice as expensive then the our cdn system. Without every single citizen being covered, unlike up north.
It's one of our prides.

Even though we bitch about it at times.. who doesn't bitch about something ?

 

[moreluck]

"it's estimated that two-thirds of the cost of reform can be paid for by reallocating money that is simply being wasted in federal health care programs."

Well, if they have the capability of stopping the waste in Federal Health Care.......then why not do just that.....and fix the present health care system????? The only thing wrong with all of our "help" systems is the fraud and covering of people here illegally. Stop all that waste and America would be in great shape. Stop it in food stamps, social security,
insurance claims.....etc.

 

[av8torntn]

Yeah, I must have punched some buttons to get to to brag about your athletic prowress, LOL.

Show me a motionbased.com readout of your 30 mile bike ride averaging 20mph and I'll believe it. Or is 'about 20mph' more like 16?

Pretty good guess on your part that I don't use a garmin if it'll make you admit zero has a foolish plan I'll take a photo of my trip computer and email it to you. But actually the above postwas not bragging it was more of an admission that at 40 I can no longer be as fit as I once was. Yes my speed is normally 19.x-20.x and my very first ride had a top speed of a whopping 14.8 mph.


Now why do you fear answering my other questions? Why do you feel you need to know my weight or the weight of anyone else ? Why do you feel the need to force me to turn over my medical records to the government? Of courese the other questions still apply. Why do you fear my economic freedom? Why do you fear my health care freedom? Why do you fear the constitution ?

 

[camillearvelo5rk]

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."

Thomas Jefferson

 

[diesel96]

The government is no better at solving this issue than they are at running Social Security or Medicare.

Actually the Government does not run anything quite well.

Anthony Weiner introduces amendement to repeal Medicare; puts Republicans on the Spot

lets see.....Gov't run....Cash for Clunkers, bet you guys are dissappointed this program is working.....

Why do you fear my economic freedom? Why do you fear my health care freedom? Why do you fear the constitution ?

You call privatized parasite healthcare econmic freedom. You envoke the constitution in this conversation when we become interventionists with our massive military looking for one guy, and toppling another, meanwhile ignore the sick and uninsured in our own country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCV_EIvNb14&gclid=CMuavJ7mgJwCFQtN5QodqHub-A

The party of no...spreading false info and hoping our president fails even if Americans suffer....pathetic

​

http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/healthcare_flowchart_900.jpg

 

[Babagounj]

Spreading lies & fear is the Democratic Party's motto.

I hate the cash for clunkers program. Not all vehicles I would like to purchase are available with this , and the used parts market dries up since they crash the cars that are turned in.
Just where is all this money for this program coming from....is it money saved by stopping all the waste in our current healthcare system ?

 

[klein]

Diesel, just like myself.. going towards death ears.
Maybe if they have teenagers one day, and one get aids, cancer, or some other chronicle disease. They will wake up.
Now what to do. Kids only 18 , just got out of school or college, she ain't covered.
1 option, sell your house, pay for the meds, and treatment. Whats the other ?

Or, even in a lesser matter... they waitress or bartend or small business owner, have no coverage.

It's sad to see a system not even in place for a whole generation yet.... and it's not working, yet they wanna keep it.

 

[av8torntn]

Anthony Weiner introduces amendement to repeal Medicare; puts Republicans on the Spot

lets see.....Gov't run....Cash for Clunkers, bet you guys are dissappointed this program is working.....



You call privatized parasite healthcare econmic freedom. You envoke the constitution in this conversation when we become interventionists with our massive military looking for one guy, and toppling another, meanwhile ignore the sick and uninsured in our own country.

Yes I do. I see plenty in the Constitution giving the central government the authority to raise armies and wage war. I could not find the part about insurance or better health insurance. Just kindly cut and paste it for me.

Glad you brought up that Government corporate welfare program. It is a perfect example of the failures of Government. What just a few weeks in and it is already bankrupt. The only way for it to survive is to confiscate more money from the unwilling. Is this the same fate you wish for my health care?

I don't have time to watch the video right now but I'm hoping you are saying the huge dim majority is about to end Medicare. I highly doubt it but I'll keep my fingers crossed that these thieves will do something positive for our great nation.

 

[Babagounj]

lets see.....Gov't run....Cash for Clunkers, bet you guys are dissappointed this program is working.....

Great program; except that there is this one little problem.
Go to CARS.gov
read the disclaimer, enter I agree, and kiss all the information on your computer good-bye.
Basically Cars.gov allows the gov't to take over your computer.
" When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a federal computer system and is the property of the US gov't. "
Meaning they will report anything they find to the proper authorities, both domestic & foreign.

Glenn Beck: Cars.gov allows government to takeover your computer

 

[diesel96]

Great program; except that there is this one little problem.
Go to CARS.gov
read the disclaimer, enter I agree, and kiss all the information on your computer good-bye.
Basically Cars.gov allows the gov't to take over your computer.
" When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a federal computer system and is the property of the US gov't. "
Meaning they will report anything they find to the proper authorities, both domestic & foreign.
YouTube - Glenn Beck: Cars.gov allows government to takeover your computer

At best it is clumsy language, log onto you tube and read the comments on this link...eatacook explains it in detail....afterall were talking Glen beck here, are you joking?
You hate the cash for clunkers program, you hate the fact that American automakers,dealers, steelworkers, parts suppliers, are getting a boost in this super reccession....

[quote=av8torntn;573857]Yes I do. I see plenty in the Constitution giving the central government the authority to raise armies and wage war. I could not find the part about insurance or better health insurance. Just kindly cut and paste it for me.

Glad you brought up that Government corporate welfare program. It is a perfect example of the failures of Government. What just a few weeks in and it is already bankrupt. The only way for it to survive is to confiscate more money from the unwilling. Is this the same fate you wish for my health care?[/quote]




AV8...will you kindly cut and paste the part in the Constitution for the central Gov't to lie and purposely mislead in order to get authority to raise armies and wage war and become interventionist....

Funny how you look at Cash for Clunkers as a hugh failure, when nearly all economist point this out as a success....

 

[brett636]

At best it is clumsy language, log onto you tube and read the comments on this link...eatacook explains it in detail....afterall were talking Glen beck here, are you joking?
You hate the cash for clunkers program, you hate the fact that American automakers,dealers, steelworkers, parts suppliers, are getting a boost in this super reccession....

Yes I do. I see plenty in the Constitution giving the central government the authority to raise armies and wage war. I could not find the part about insurance or better health insurance. Just kindly cut and paste it for me.

Glad you brought up that Government corporate welfare program. It is a perfect example of the failures of Government. What just a few weeks in and it is already bankrupt. The only way for it to survive is to confiscate more money from the unwilling. Is this the same fate you wish for my health care?

AV8...will you kindly cut and paste the part in the Constitution for the central Gov't to lie and purposely mislead in order to get authority to raise armies and wage war and become interventionist....

Funny how you look at Cash for Clunkers as a hugh failure, when nearly all economist point this out as a success....

Why can't you understand a simple question. He asked for the part of the constitution where it says you are guaranteed health insurance. Show it to us.

 

[diesel96]

AV8...will you kindly cut and paste the part in the Constitution for the central Gov't to lie and purposely mislead in order to get authority to raise armies and wage war and become interventionist....

Funny how you look at Cash for Clunkers as a hugh failure, when nearly all economist point this out as a success....

Why can't you understand a simple question. He asked for the part of the constitution where it says you are guaranteed health insurance. Show it to us.[/QUOTE]

Yes I do. I see plenty in the Constitution giving the central government the authority to raise armies and wage war. I could not find the part about insurance or better health insurance. Just kindly cut and paste it for me.

#1) I'm still waiting to see the part about us being interventionists....

#2) I never claimed we are guaranteed healthcare in the constitution, don't know why you came to that conclusion, just found it strange AV8 brought it up in the first place while discussing Gov healthcare issues...

#3) I will throw you a bone for the hell of it Brett, The Preamble talks about the purpose of the document. One of the statements of purpose, to … promote the general welfare of "We the People", has been of great importance in upholding social legislation?....

So what do you want me to do, cut and paste the constitution? I'm sure you have a pocket size copy of the Constitution in your pocket protector....

 

[wkmac]

Why can't you understand a simple question. He asked for the part of the constitution where it says you are guaranteed health insurance. Show it to us.

Brett & AV,

I agree in principle with what you 2 are saying about healthcare as it relates to opposing the idea but I don't argue it as unconstitutional because it's not. You might want to look first off at the taxing powers of Congress in Article 1 Section 8 and how the General Welfare Clause has come to be legally understood in this day and age. Also you might look back at Railroad Retirement Board v. Alton Railroad Co. in which SCOTUS ruled unconstitutional a Social Security plan for railroad workers who had in effect already been nationalized and then look a couple of years later at Helvering v. Davis and the gov't arguement defending our now Social Security system and why it wasn't ruled unconstitutional and it involved mostly the powers of Art. 1 Sec. 8, Amendment 16 and the authority of Congress to tax and then allocate the money as it sees fit from the general welfare fund. A correctional to the mistake they made in Alton Railroad.

The 1965' Medicare Act (socialized medicine for all those over age 65 if you will) was also brought into being on those same grounds as well as the general welfare clause. What about the 2003' Medicare Prescription Drug and Modernization Act championed by Bush and the republican Congress? Call it what you will but it's still socialized medicine and that was also supported on longstanding legal ground. Now it would appear President Obama and the democrats want to add their own personal touch and IMHO, you got nothing in the Constitution to stop it.

I agree completely that making any central gov't the sole arbitor of power in such an important area is wrong and I don't trust it at all. That said however, I also completely agree that to believe that a cartel of private corporations (that's who's driving this thing anyway and what it's all about) is going to act to our benefit is completely foolish as well. Milton Friedman (I admire him in one respect but disagree with his mixing Austrian with Keynesian and coming up with Trickle down) did correctly point out about the number of private hospitals of then verses now and that is very much worth observing. However IMO, the question left unanswered were how many were local owned, run and controlled and of those how many were what some would be called non-profit? Nothing wrong with non-profit if people want to "VOLUNTEER" for such a system and depending on the system, I might even be willing to "VOLUNTEER" and support such a "LOCAL" plan or idea.

I believe healthcare is a completely private matter left to the individual and as long as all the facts are known and nothing is hidden (no force, no fraud) I should be able to go see whoever I choose for my healthcare, even if it's witchdoctor or some mystic medicine man. At the same time, if the employer provided plan disallows such coverage, I should be free to take that portion of my total pay and move it to such a plan that does cover my choice or to use to self insure if I so choose that route. Watch closely now as the hardcore despotic, authorterian unionist rise up and object to such ideas of leaving the "Borg" collective.


Medicare patients are also restricted in seeking beyond certain medical means not that the powers that be will come after them but would come after the medical person that treated them. And yes that has happened.
Don't treat my slave or else!

Roe v Wade and it's defenders argue a woman has a right to her own body. Ponder that legal premise going forward and I can tell you the law library has many interesting things to say along those lines too! Unintended Consequences? I love it when they shoot themselves in the foot!

AV, along the lines of Tom Dilorenzo's piece that you liked above, I found this at "Strike the Root" and not only does it fit Tom's assertion of abuse of gov't programs but I'm sure it's gonna make a lot of people mad when they read it. I actually LMAO when I read it because the idea of calling 911 2 to 3 times a week for a ride to the doctor's office was a riot. In fact, I'm putting everyone on notice right now that if this part of the law remains the same under any enforced gov't medical program, every friend'ing time I go to the doctor, I'm calling 911 for the VIP ride! I'm gonna get my money out of this and then some!


Brett and AV, I wanna close with something and no matter how I word this, it's not gonna come out nice but here it is anyway. You guys get on Diesel about his party's President and Congress abusing if you will the Constitution by twisting or outright ignoring sections you believe prohibit the agenda he supports. Fact of the matter, you guys in one way or another supported over the last 8 years an adminstration and until 2006', a republican Congress that for it's own ends did the very same thing. To walk around the Constitution, they hired lawyers to write legal opinions supporting their constitutional trampling and then defended these actions as having some legal standing. I know in your mind it was all for a noble cause and I've not doubt you strongly believe as you've argued to support your cause. On the otherhand, the very same thing can be said for Diesel's position and beliefs and just as I know you beleive you come from a noble cause, so too do I think the same of Diesel. Fact is, I don't think any of you have any ill will and you guys only want what you think is truly best for all of us. I understand and I even respect that.

Even though I think the Constitution is a horrible document and should be thrown on the ash heep of history, it's what we have and it's alleged to be the "law of the land." Everytime any of us go to it and treat it like some cafeteria line, it erodes it and it opens the door for the malcontents and slimbags we all continue to elect on election day to use nilly willy for their own agendas. You can't have an open door to gov't on the one hand and then expect that door to close on the other. It doesn't and historically it's never worked that way.

Chalmers Johnson in his 3 volume works talked about in his days at CIA of their created term of what they called "unintended consequences." The past actions of republicans set the table for the "unintended consequences" that we are seeing today so as much as I agree with you, I also have to lay some blame at you as well!

JMO