Is anyone following Wisconsin?

[bbsam]

By the money they take out of the economy thru taxation

And that's why I find that I'm not sure you've thought things through completely. Germany has very high taxation, a ferociously strong public union, socialized medicine, and a vibrant economy and yet in your rendition of things, those things can't all exist at the same time. So I ask you again. How did they do it?

 

[1timepu]

Man last November I waited for an hr to vote

 

[1timepu]

And that's why I find that I'm not sure you've thought things through completely. Germany has very high taxation, a ferociously strong public union, socialized medicine, and a vibrant economy and yet in your rendition of things, those things can't all exist at the same time. So I ask you again. How did they do it?

Because In Germany, Exports help them alot and the service sector

 

[1timepu]

Is service stuff they produce, we don't produce much if anything here

 

[bbsam]

And while Government Debt is not added to the GDP........IT SHOULD

That's a pretty simplistic notion. If we are talking economics, then simply put debt is not in itself an evil. Obviously debt should be manageable and at a favorable rate, but to simply say debt and in particular government debt is bad is just silly. It's foolish business. That's how you actually spend more trying to keep a crappy piece of machinery running just by replacing parts rather than take out the $120,000 loan at 4 1/4% interest and get a better, more reliable, and in the long run more cost effective product.
Same thing goes for roads in this country. Think the Autobahn has gaping craters for pot-holes? Hell no. They build the roads to last in Europe. The base is 4 to 5 times deeper and with better quality materials. Gotta do that if you want 140mph vehicles running the roads.

 

[brett636]

And I'm trying to see how you say that. If government is the biggest player in the economy's goods and services, whether providing or purchasing, how then can they be a "big minus".

This is easily explained. The government does not produce anything. Everything the government purchases or uses requires taking money from the private sector in order to pay for it. Think of the government as a symbiotic parasite on the people. It is necessary to a point, but the bigger the government gets the bigger demand it has on its host, ie the people. The bigger the demand the less the people can contribute to their own needs and desires ultimately hobbling the economy and its ability to grow now and in the future, Economists don't even rank taxes with added value to the economy, but as transfer payments moving money from one area of the economy(the private sector) to another(the government sector) having no effect on the economy's growth. Even if the government borrows money it has to pay it back later with interest, so the effect on the economy is actually negative because the government has to withdraw more money from the private sector than it added during the borrowing in order to pay the money back.

 

[Babagounj]

And that's why I find that I'm not sure you've thought things through completely. Germany has very high taxation, a ferociously strong public union, socialized medicine, and a vibrant economy and yet in your rendition of things, those things can't all exist at the same time. So I ask you again. How did they do it?

you forgot about DHL being owned by the German Postal Service, what a mess

 

[bbsam]

Is service stuff they produce, we don't produce much if anything here

But there is no reason why we can't re-tool in this country and do so. Companies are already finding out that moving out of country creates more costs than first realized. It's becoming less cost effective, but to keep companies here and bring new ones in, we have to spend on infrastructure and education 'cause we've let them go to hell in the last 30 years. So if you don't like the term "spend" and you don't like the term "invest" try on the wore "reload". There ya go. We need to reload industry in this country to take on the world.

 

[bbsam]

you forgot about DHL being owned by the German Postal Service, what a mess

A mess in this counry. In Europe, they are still the top dog. And there ya go. There's an export that ended up costing them big time not helping them.

 

[bbsam]

This is easily explained. The government does not produce anything. Everything the government purchases or uses requires taking money from the private sector in order to pay for it. Think of the government as a symbiotic parasite on the people. It is necessary to a point, but the bigger the government gets the bigger demand it has on its host, ie the people. The bigger the demand the less the people can contribute to their own needs and desires ultimately hobbling the economy and its ability to grow now and in the future, Economists don't even rank taxes with added value to the economy, but as transfer payments moving money from one area of the economy(the private sector) to another(the government sector) having no effect on the economy's growth. Even if the government borrows money it has to pay it back later with interest, so the effect on the economy is actually negative because the government has to withdraw more money from the private sector than it added during the borrowing in order to pay the money back.

All this is true if and only if the citizens decide that the government truly is too big. Oh, they all say it. But it's the government in your back yard that is too big, not the one in my back yard where 4 out of 10 of my neighbors work and if they lose their jobs my property values drop even lower than they have in the past three years. They say it until the garbage isn't collected or the snow isn't plowed or the road is simply a series of potholes that the BMw keeps bottoming out on. Show me a congressman that has willingly walked into congress and proposed putting a military base in a neighboring state rather than their own. Or show me an alderman that doesn't want to spend the money on a railroad spur to bring a Boeing plant into the city. And why do they borrow the money? Because they see a benefit to the community. They see the employment prospects, the rising home values, the higher tax base. Would Boeing or Microsoft or General Electric build in a place that didn't have such amenities? Not in this country.

 

[brett636]

All this is true if and only if the citizens decide that the government truly is too big. Oh, they all say it. But it's the government in your back yard that is too big, not the one in my back yard where 4 out of 10 of my neighbors work and if they lose their jobs my property values drop even lower than they have in the past three years. They say it until the garbage isn't collected or the snow isn't plowed or the road is simply a series of potholes that the BMw keeps bottoming out on. Show me a congressman that has willingly walked into congress and proposed putting a military base in a neighboring state rather than their own. Or show me an alderman that doesn't want to spend the money on a railroad spur to bring a Boeing plant into the city. And why do they borrow the money? Because they see a benefit to the community. They see the employment prospects, the rising home values, the higher tax base. Would Boeing or Microsoft or General Electric build in a place that didn't have such amenities? Not in this country.

Your situation is not unique as I live in a subdivision where property values could plummet if people began losing their jobs. The problem is people will be losing their jobs in great numbers as the government demands more and more of what the private sector produces. The less it can invest the fewer jobs that can be created or even maintained. This country is in mortal danger of not existing as it does today and I get the feeling that you just don't care.

 

[bbsam]

"...not existing as it does today." I don't know. There is a lot about this country that I wouldn't mind see changing. wk and I probably see things similarly in this regard. But at the same time I am confident in my abilities no matter what the socio-political climate. I do have my preferences, but if I don't get my way it's not the end of the world. So, in a way, you are correct. I do not care.

 

[1timepu]

Ah, US debt is 95% of GDP not good we are falling off the cliff

 

[1timepu]

But there is no reason why we can't re-tool in this country and do so. Companies are already finding out that moving out of country creates more costs than first realized. It's becoming less cost effective, but to keep companies here and bring new ones in, we have to spend on infrastructure and education 'cause we've let them go to hell in the last 30 years. So if you don't like the term "spend" and you don't like the term "invest" try on the wore "reload". There ya go. We need to reload industry in this country to take on the world.

The Education system need's to be totally revamped, to go back again is a mistake, as Europe and Asia are putting our kid's behind them, we need to re do the Education system over, why do private school's spend less per pupil but get as good and sometimes better results? It;s just not about spending, but spending wisely which this country never has done. As far as industry the one of the reason's they left was high cost in production. They also get killed with cheaper imports. The Gas tax was for the infrastructure, what happened to that, they used it for something else, Do we really trust our Government with our money? SS is broke Medi care is broke Medi cair is broke, I surely don't!

 

[tourists24]

So the only way to fix the economy is to cut taxes? That's it? Never anything else? Oh and regulation too? Let the Oligarchy handle the economy? All taxes are bad?

I never insinuated to answer any of your questions at this point. I am simply asking how raising taxes on a certain population is going to fix our economy long term.

 

[menotyou]

Lets go back to Wisconsin for a second. How is it fair to make public sector employees pay for something because state is broke, yet, in the same bill, give a tax break to someone. I thought the state was broke and everyone needed to give?

 

[menotyou]

I'm not saying they shouldn't give, just talking about the equity of the situation.

 

[hondo]

The Middle Class is sooo latter twentieth century. Try to keep up.

 

[moreluck]

Hey, they have room to mop now for a bit....

 

[bbsam]

Lets go back to Wisconsin for a second. How is it fair to make public sector employees pay for something because state is broke, yet, in the same bill, give a tax break to someone. I thought the state was broke and everyone needed to give?

You are giving into a red herring. The state is not broke. The $3.6 billion dollar short-fall is a 2013 projection and as has been pointed out before the governor has given tax breaks to political allies in order to help get to that short-fall. But it's easier to blame the unions since we can't blame the banks that are too big to fail. Unions cannot lay claim to that status.