Occupy Wall Street

wkmac

Well-Known Member

So because you read a book you're now the authority on how the financial world crumbled. Really? I appreciate your statement of always trying to further your education but it appears you've missed the obvious bias from Gretchen Morgenson, or should we say Press Secretary Morgenson of the failed Steve Forbes Republican Presidential campaigns. The same Steve Forbes who hired Morgenson back in the eighties, the same guy who's on the Board of Directors of the Republican fund raising machine FreedomWorks (the creation of those unbiased Koch brothers). Forbes has been Morgenson's benefactor for years and you really think her book is unbiased?
I will agree many pols from both parties are not innocent in the effect of past legislation but the concentration of blame on Barney Frank is ludicrous. Frank was a minority Congressman from '95-'07 but somehow had unlimited influence and power. As far as Freddie/Fannie involvement, how does issuing loans to 2% of the population (under the Community Redevelopement Act also passed by a Republican congress) cause the entire economy to crash? Only one in twenty five lenders that did sub prime loans were involved with CRA loans, but lets heap the blame on those lazy poor people ripping off the rest of us again! Obviously it couldn't be the exemption from capital gain tax on home sales (also passed by a Republican congress) having anything to do with speculative home purchasing. It was all Barney!

It's pretty obvious from your lack of citing ANY Republican lawmakers who voted overwhelmingly to repeal Glass Steagle (on a mostly party line vote, before the final conference vote) where your real loyalty lies.

I believe gov't is guilty in many respects but I also believe gov't is only half the equation. Gov't has a partner in the invisible hand of the private sector world. No, not all of the private sector nor or all corporations are guilty at the same level just as not all so-called "rich" would be guilty at the same level either.

However to ignore "K Street" and the revolving door of gov't to corp. leaders and lobbyists with no expectation that these folks won't feather their own nests is just naive to say the least. Banking and Investment industry lobbying to effect legislative and policy outcomes while placing industry insiders as regulatory officials is not only regulatory capture at it's best but this is also how the risk of market actions are backloaded onto the tax paying public. If there is no risk, what is the preventer to any action including obviously immoral ones? Even worse, these same insiders stand there and tell the public horror stories (remember the secret meetings in Wasington and Congressional leaders coming out griped in utter fear and thus TARP) that if they fail to let Congress absorb these massive losses onto taxpayers, the entire structure would fail and all would be harmed. This was an utter lie from the get go. Yes, the too bigs would fail (hooray, let's throw a party) but it was never a situation of "all life would come to an end." It would only end for the leeches but a real freed market could open up for the rest of us. That was the use of fear to drive towards an outcome and it was an action of both certain corp. industry interests and gov't with it's embedded operatives.

Much can be read of this from both right and left perspectives but 2 that come to mind for starters are (from the right) W. Cleon Skousen's "The Naked Capitalists" and (from the left) Gabriel Kolko "The Triumph of Conservatism". These are seed planters and not all conclusive observations. Kolko's work exposes the early 20th century (first decade) Progressive movement for what it was and not what the word progressive is considered today. You'll also understand why Neo-liberalism isn't true liberalism to begin with and tends to always have a so-called conservative outcome when all is said and done. Skousens's work examines Carroll Quigley's massive "Tragedy and Hope" and the 20th century players into the cold war era.

Once you begin to understand these people aren't free market and never have been but only hide behind free market language to fool us, we can begin to understand that capitalism as we know it today is not small gov't but is in fact a proponent of big gov't outcomes. Modern capitalism is nothing more than a type of neo-feudalism or mercantilism dressed up in a different suit of clothes. The truth is we didn't win the American Revolution, we lost. It just took 200 years to fully become obvious and it's getting near the time to revisit and finish the job. I'm excited the weapon of choice and means is information, truth and the delivery vehicle is the internet and social networks.

IMO the early Tea Party and the early OWS movements begin to point fingers in the correct direction and now sadly more and more both have become hijacked by the very monsters they earlier may never have realized they were pointing at. Had they been allowed to go on, they would have opened up a can of worms some don't want opened and thus the so-called elite were left no choice but to hijack in order to protect the nest they have built for themselves.

What we really need to solve the ills that plague us are "Markets Not Capitalism!"

Big Business and the Rise of American Statism by Roy Chillds
 

brown_trousers

Well-Known Member
A living wage and ending so called "free trade" sound reasonable. Universal health care for all, absolutely. Free state and community colleges, yes. Fast track alternative fuels, yes. One trillion in infrastructure , absolutely. Racial and gender equality, why not. Open borders?? MIght be good if all was equal throughout the world, but we are not yet ready for that (however, their logic is since capital has no borders so should labor). Fix our elections, great.On forgiving the "debt", that sure is a leap. On outlawing the credit agencies, why not? They are the same ones that said Lehmann was a fine investment right up to its fall. ANd card check for unionization?? Hell yeah!! Overall a great start to be built on over time. Again well done OWS!!

Wow... A very enthusiastic endorsement of socialism. We could change our name to the socialist states of america
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
And yet there is no outcry at these Occupy places about actually doing anything to fix the problem,,, even if it is socialistic answers.... no solutions at all... only cause disruptions
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
Turns out OWS had nothing to do with B of A reversing their decision on debit card fees. It was a 22 yr old named Molly Katchpole who had started an online petition who is being credited with prompting B of A to change their mind.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Turns out OWS had nothing to do with B of A reversing their decision on debit card fees. It was a 22 yr old named Molly Katchpole who had started an online petition who is being credited with prompting B of A to change their mind.

I knew that yesterday.. she collected 300.000 sigs on her fb petition.
But, I think it was more than that myself... it all added up. They (BoA) will get their money soon enough, anyways. As soon as the republican party gets re-elected.
More tax breaks for the rich and corperations, and more taxes to pay for the ordinary working people.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
"Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%
Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation’s income—an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret."

"Some people look at income inequality and shrug their shoulders. "

"Alexis de Tocqueville once described what he saw as a chief part of the peculiar genius of American society—something he called “self-interest properly understood.” The last two words were the key. Everyone possesses self-interest in a narrow sense: I want what’s good for me right now! Self-interest “properly understood” is different. It means appreciating that paying attention to everyone else’s self-interest—in other words, the common welfare—is in fact a precondition for one’s own ultimate well-being. Tocqueville was not suggesting that there was anything noble or idealistic about this outlook—in fact, he was suggesting the opposite. It was a mark of American pragmatism. Those canny Americans understood a basic fact: looking out for the other guy isn’t just good for the soul—it’s good for business.

The top 1 percent have the best houses, the best educations, the best doctors, and the best lifestyles, but there is one thing that money doesn’t seem to have bought: an understanding that their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live. Throughout history, this is something that the top 1 percent eventually do learn. Too late."

Article by Nobel Laureate Jospeh Stiglitz.
 

steward71

Well-Known Member
Turns out OWS had nothing to do with B of A reversing their decision on debit card fees. It was a 22 yr old named Molly Katchpole who had started an online petition who is being credited with prompting B of A to change their mind.

No up state did you read TOS post it was OWS that caused the bank to change the policy, come on now get with the porgram. LOL.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Turns out OWS had nothing to do with B of A reversing their decision on debit card fees. It was a 22 yr old named Molly Katchpole who had started an online petition who is being credited with prompting B of A to change their mind.[/QUOTE

No...OWS took down MF GLOBAL on Monday after a hard fought weekend battle.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
No...OWS took down MF GLOBAL on Monday after a hard fought weekend battle.

I do think OWS Europe had a part of that. Banks had to take a 50% loss on Greek Debt, and so did MF Global.
Without OWS, maybe the banks wouldn';t have been hit that hard, and the tax payers instead, like in the US in 2008.

Besides, could you imagine how OWS Europe would have grown and demostrated in HUGE numbers, if those banks would have been bailed out 100% on behalf of the tax payers ?
It would have gotten pretty nasty over there .
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
The next tool we are going to examine is the tyrant’s use and encouragement of hatred among those he wishes to govern. This is a part of the “divide and conquer” or “divide and rule” strategy.

Of the elements mentioned in the Wikipedia article, the most important are
1) creating or encouraging divisions among the subjects in order to prevent alliances that could challenge the sovereign; and
2) aiding and promoting those who are willing to cooperate with the sovereign.

Of course, the most obvious example of the first is the left-right political spectrum, a construct that, if not created for the purpose of “divide and rule,” was easily adapted to that purpose. The vast majority of people willingly accept this spectrum and the resulting hatred of those on the other end of it, despite its ridiculously poor ability to describe reality.

The latter is easily demonstrated. A person who is pro-life and supports the War on Drugs is usually considered “right,” while one who is pro-choice and opposes the War on Drugs is usually considered “left.” But what to do with people who are pro-life and oppose the War on Drugs, and with people who are pro-choice and support the War on Drugs? Even considering only two issues, the one-dimensional left-right spectrum fails. The two-dimensional spectrum sometimes used by libertarians fails by adding only a single additional issue (the separation between “personal” and “economic” freedom is completely arbitrary). There are hundreds of possible issues.

This construct does not serve our interests, although it certainly does serve that of the ruling class. It shouldn’t matter at all if different people have different political opinions, any more than it matters that they have different religions. What matters is whether people are simultaneously able, and determined, to impose their views on others. Your enemy is not some ordinary person on a different part of some ruler-contrived spectrum. Your enemy is the ruling class, the only people both able and determined to impose on us.

Tools for Tyrants: Hatred, AKA Divide and Conquer
 

1989

Well-Known Member
I think the european people are a bigger force than ows. The greeks wouldn't have a problem with germany bailed them out. Fyi...the greek riots came long before ows
 

klein

Für Meno :)
I think the european people are a bigger force than ows. The greeks wouldn't have a problem with germany bailed them out. Fyi...the greek riots came long before ows

Of course the greek riots came before, because they ran out of money !
See what happens to the US when China demands cuts and higher taxes before lending anymore.
Probably same thing.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
When the us ran out of money... were there riots? When the us raised the retirement age...were there riots?
 

klein

Für Meno :)
When the us ran out of money... were there riots? When the us raised the retirement age...were there riots?

Gee, don't even go there. You are enjoying the lowest taxes in over 50 years now.
Greece on the other hand is struggling with the highest taxes in history.

Plenty of them have lost most or all of their life savings and retirement money.
They thought their 401K's are safe, just like you.

Retirement age went up 7 years I believe, in Greece, along with cuts in montly pension plans.
Hundreds of thousands of government workers laid off, including teachers, police, fireman, etc.

All in all, I would say the average Greek took about a 50% cut.
Now, try that in the USA..... if you think people will just take it and sit still, then so be it.
I'll be happy for you and the US.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Klein, the greek retirement age was raised to age 63. Germany is 67. How did they loose their life savings? Who took their 401k?
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Germany better still be age 65, I hope. At one time, while I was still working and living there, it was age 63.
Gee, don't know if I'll last until 67 to collect :(

Greek had age 55 prior didn't they - so now they need to work 8 years longer.
How they lost money - easy -some or most of it in Greek bonds and stocks.
They became Junk Bonds as we all know - a reason why MF group went bk - they betted on Greek bonds.

Don't get me wrong, I still think the US can pull out of this high anual deficit crises, but it does take congress to work together.
2 years at a time, every 4 years won't do it, either !
 
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1989

Well-Known Member
Were the greek people forced buy greek bonds? Many people retired at 50. They may get a 40% cut. It's tough to pay your obligations when only 1/3 of taxes owed are collected. I think it was 2007 when germany raised the retirement age.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Were the greek people forced buy greek bonds? Many people retired at 50. They may get a 40% cut. It's tough to pay your obligations when only 1/3 of taxes owed are collected. I think it was 2007 when germany raised the retirement age.

Isn't that the same problem the US has ? Not paying enough taxes for what is spent ?
1.65 Trillion per year deficit... hmm that adds up to $5.300 per year per every citizen living in the US. (1.65 Trillion divided by 310 Million population).

So, if you are a family of 3, you better pay an extra $16.000 per year on taxes to keep up the current status quo.
Of course, you can do cuts, too. $16.000 worth of cuts, from your family of 3 - how much of that will actually be your burden. Lets be generous and say half - so, you'll feel the cuts of $8000 directly. Be it in education, or medical, or government services and tax breaks. But, it will effect you. Mostly probably SS, retirement and medicare.

And that's not even paying the National debt down.... that's just balancing the budget !

I have no clue how the poor will get to downsize by $16000, if they don't even see that all year round.... and the Rich are sacred... So, more of a burden on you .. 89ner !
 
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