Only 5% of next car purchasers expect to buy all electric cars-Road and Track.

[wilberforce15]

No, they’re just not sure all electric is the future yet. They seem to be more interested in hybrids and hydrogen. Mostly hybrids which makes sense since the charging stations are not in place yet for the masses.

That just completely changed teh argument. That's a much better one. I applaud the change.
Toyota can't and won't make a competitive EV at a profit.

If hybrids win the day, Toyota will.

 

[wilberforce15]

The Chevy Bolt sells about 10,000 cars per year, and Chevy can't even make many more than that. And they do it for the privilege of losing money on each sale. And Tesla is supposed to be scared, as they sell 1.5-2million at record profit margins?

 

[Non liberal]

Your entire argument boils down to Toyota being good at making something completely different with equipment that's completely irrelevant to the new task. They have to start from scratch. They have not yet started.

They can use their current buildings, and they can make a possible ev. But they cannot do it for a profit at a reasonable price point. That's why they haven't done it. Tesla is making more money than all of them. The market is plenty big already, and if Toyota could beat Tesla, they already would be.

They aren't waiting. They just suck.

Plus, whenever Toyota makes one, it’s going to better then the best Tesla. That is what you don’t seem to understand. They ARE a car company. Tesla is trying to be a car company. Toyota is already ahead because Tesla has to learn from scratch how to make a car. Toyotas hybrids are already cleaner and more efficient then the all electric.

 

[Non liberal]

They cannot offer prices lower than Tesla. That's my entire point. It has nothing to do with what they can do with ICE and hybrids.
An EV is a completely different thing. Tesla has done more to revolutionize manufacturing than Toyota did for ICE.

The gap is so big that Tesla makes the biggest profit margins in automaker history at the same price point where the big three sell EV's for a loss. Let that sink in.

They can't produce a 30k EV, and if they do, it would be so bad nobody would want it. And if they did, Tesla could offer better at the same price point. The manufacturing edge is insurmountable.

Yes, they could. If the technology was better, they would. It isn’t.

 

[wilberforce15]

Plus, whenever Toyota makes one, it’s going to better then the best Tesla. That is what you don’t seem to understand. They ARE a car company. Tesla is trying to be a car company. Toyota is already ahead because Tesla has to learn from scratch how to make a car. Toyotas hybrids are already cleaner and more efficient then the all electric.

It's easier to make a car better than the best Tesla. Anybody can do that. Tesla can make one better than the best Tesla.

But what Toyota can't do is make them in volume, for profit.

 

[wilberforce15]

Yes, they could. If the technology was better, they would. It isn’t.

In what building? They don't have one.

With what machines? They don't have them.

With what batteries? They pay 3rd party markups and are last in line.

With what engineers? Tesla has had the best engineering recruitment of any company in the world for a decade.

 

[vantexan]

Yes. You just made my entire point.

GM's Barra admits the Chevrolet Bolt is not profitable | Car News | Auto123

GM boss Mary Barra acknowledges that the company’s electric vehicles are not making a profit for it. Auto123.com has details. Auto123.com has the details.

www.auto123.com

The Bolt is horrendously bad. Nobody wants it. They aren't even capable of making many.

And it doesn't make any money.
Toyota is behind even that.

Look at the date on your article. The Bolt did have a lot of issues but they have improved. I know a retiree who just bought a 2022 Bolt for $30k with an end of model year sale. He's happy with it. No one is saying it's a Tesla. But I wouldn't count out a company like Toyota from making a decent EV at a much lower price than what Tesla's are selling for. Chevy just announced a 2023 crossover EV that's a bit bigger than the Bolt. If Tesla can produce EV's at a much lower cost they may need to start soon.

 

[newolddude]

Look at the date on your article. The Bolt did have a lot of issues but they have improved. I know a retiree who just bought a 2022 Bolt for $30k with an end of model year sale. He's happy with it. No one is saying it's a Tesla. But I wouldn't count out a company like Toyota from making a decent EV at a much lower price than what Tesla's are selling for. Chevy just announced a 2023 crossover EV that's a bit bigger than the Bolt. If Tesla can produce EV's at a much lower cost they may need to start soon.

Tesla doesn't have to. They have months long wait lists and the sheep pay the way too high prices for cruddy built cars that have all sorts of interior issues and poor fit/finish.

 

[vantexan]

Tesla doesn't have to. They have months long wait lists and the sheep pay the way too high prices for cruddy built cars that have all sorts of interior issues and poor fit/finish.

But if they can get a Chevy that has had the bugs worked out of it for $35k or the much superior Tesla for $50k on up, it'll come down to what they can afford vs the prestige of owning the Tesla. Right now Tesla doesn't have a lot of competition. But if suddenly there are 30-40 different models on the market supported by brands that people know and like and consumer magazines and other ratings services are recommending some of them as reliable, etc then it's a whole new ballgame.

 

[wilberforce15]

Look at the date on your article. The Bolt did have a lot of issues but they have improved. I know a retiree who just bought a 2022 Bolt for $30k with an end of model year sale. He's happy with it. No one is saying it's a Tesla. But I wouldn't count out a company like Toyota from making a decent EV at a much lower price than what Tesla's are selling for. Chevy just announced a 2023 crossover EV that's a bit bigger than the Bolt. If Tesla can produce EV's at a much lower cost they may need to start soon.

And Chevy didn't make any money on it, and can't make many.

 

[wilberforce15]

Tesla doesn't have to. They have months long wait lists and the sheep pay the way too high prices for cruddy built cars that have all sorts of interior issues and poor fit/finish.

That's the luxury of selling a car that no competitor can re-create, at a price point they can't match, in a volume they have no prayer to build.

 

[vantexan]

And Chevy didn't make any money on it, and can't make many.

Time will tell. This isn't 2019.

 

[wilberforce15]

But if they can get a Chevy that has had the bugs worked out of it for $35k or the much superior Tesla for $50k on up, it'll come down to what they can afford vs the prestige of owning the Tesla. Right now Tesla doesn't have a lot of competition. But if suddenly there are 30-40 different models on the market supported by brands that people know and like and consumer magazines and other ratings services are recommending some of them as reliable, etc then it's a whole new ballgame.

All those models can come on the market, in batches of a few thousand or a 20 or 30k of them, and they won't make a dent.
Because the manufacturers will be losing money on every sale.
Tesla can make a 30k car any time it wants, and it will destroy the specs on a 30k car from another maker. It's just not the most profitable thing for them to do.

 

[wilberforce15]

Time will tell. This isn't 2019.

Bolt production has gone down since 2019. That's because Chevy figured out that they weren't going to make any money on it, and couldn't make any money on it.

 

[vantexan]

All those models can come on the market, in batches of a few thousand or a 20 or 30k of them, and they won't make a dent.
Because the manufacturers will be losing money on every sale.
Tesla can make a 30k car any time it wants, and it will destroy the specs on a 30k car from another maker. It's just not the most profitable thing for them to do.

Exactly what do you expect car manufacturers to do? Only sell ICE cars in states that still allow them to? If this is the future then they will all be making EV's at some point or go out of business. Personally I hope Toyota develops a hydrogen car that takes the future lack of needed metals completely out of the equation. I would buy that car from Toyota because I know they take building a reliable car seriously.

 

[wilberforce15]

Exactly what do you expect car manufacturers to do? Only sell ICE cars in states that still allow them to? If this is the future then they will all be making EV's at some point or go out of business. Personally I hope Toyota develops a hydrogen car that takes the future lack of needed metals completely out of the equation. I would buy that car from Toyota because I know they take building a reliable car seriously.

Oh I expect them to get into evs. It's their only hope. I'm just saying it's still not a very good hope. They are all in a rotten position, and we're going to see major manufacturers go under.

That's because they can't sell EVS without selling out their ice vehicles or making them look bad or taking away resources from them. And then they still can't make EVs profitably with Tesla around.

 

[wilberforce15]

And, let's all remember, all auto manufacturers are high debt and low margin companies. Except for tesla. None of them have the resources to withstand this kind of transition or fight.

 

[newolddude]

But if they can get a Chevy that has had the bugs worked out of it for $35k or the much superior Tesla for $50k on up, it'll come down to what they can afford vs the prestige of owning the Tesla. Right now Tesla doesn't have a lot of competition. But if suddenly there are 30-40 different models on the market supported by brands that people know and like and consumer magazines and other ratings services are recommending some of them as reliable, etc then it's a whole new ballgame.

Superior? Again just sheep overpaying for what they perceive is a luxury car but is not built like one. It's like all the idiots that buy Range Rovers and Jaguars.

 

[newolddude]

Dec 2021

Sept 2022

 

[wilberforce15]

Superior? Again just sheep overpaying for what they perceive is a luxury car but is not built like one. It's like all the idiots that buy Range Rovers and Jaguars.

Yes, superior. While everybody else is fighting to have the most uniform door panel gaps, and acting like that's an indication of luxury or quality, Tesla is actually blowing them all out of the water with specs and convenience.

That's why it's superior. That's why their customers are the happiest among the luxury brands. It doesn't matter what any of the big review companies say, it matters what consumers say. And consumers say they are superior.

You get an awkwardly closing door, or cheap feeling seats, and a vastly superior ownership experience.