Fred's Myth
Nonhyphenated American
And then there's Scripture.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Religion
- Thread starter wkmac
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You're reading too much into what I'm writing. But go to your first sentence. The Church of Christ uses the term denominations to describe all churches other than the Church of Christ. But what I'm talking about is with the establishment of the hierarchy within the Church it slipped into apostasy. But for the average member it was the Church in their mind. There was no other church for them to turn to for hundreds of years. Denominations as a used description of the many churches came about after the Reformation and was used, and still is, after the Restoration Movement of the Church of Christ to describe the many churches they came out of. Of course we see the Catholic Church as a denomination now. One of many. But in order to have denominations you have to have more than one. No one was calling the Catholic Church a denomination in 813 A.D. or in 1157 A.D. It was The Church. There was no one openly questioning the legitimacy of the Church until I believe Martin Luther in 1517. To do so was heretical and could possibly get you executed.
The Popes listed in that post remind me of the Pandemic shutdowns where average citizens had to obey but the Democratic leadership did what they pleased. But a lot worse. If what they were doing had been caught on tape and sent around the world then yes I think it would've shook the faith, maybe even destroyed it, of the average parishioner.
Fred's Myth
Nonhyphenated American
Based on your logic, once the Apostles had died, there would be no one left to baptize. A baptism 'in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the HOLY SPIRIT'.
The Holy Spirit isn't a bridesmaid. He is the heir to the works of the Father and the Son. He brings gifts: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of God. If He weren't active, how could He bestow His gifts to each of us?
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
Call it what you want.
You evidently think that history has recorded all that was done.
Do you think that there might have been 2 or 3 gathered together in secret on the first day of the week that rejected the catholic denomination? That’s not exactly front page news . But it was done. There were some that continued in the Apostle’s doctrine.
You evidently think that history has recorded all that was done.
Do you think that there might have been 2 or 3 gathered together in secret on the first day of the week that rejected the catholic denomination? That’s not exactly front page news . But it was done. There were some that continued in the Apostle’s doctrine.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
Of course I believe in prayer.
God has always and will continue to answer prayer.
The Bible teaches God answers prayer. Makes sense because Paul said there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Since you responded by asking questions, you going to answer what the Holy Spirit has done, said, or taught you separate from the Word?
( I will respond to your other comments later. Gotta head out for a while)
Fred's Myth
Nonhyphenated American
But HOW does God answer prayer?
Angels? sometimes.
God the Father is Creator.
God the Son is Redeemer.
God the Spirit is Sanctifier.
Creation is done.
Redemption is done.
Sanctification of Man is ongoing.
Fred's Myth
Nonhyphenated American
I have doubts about your sincerity in asking. You exhibit a mentality that seeks to prove your superiority by demonstrating your Biblical propers.
The fact that any of my prayers have been answered is all the proof I need that the active aspect of the Triune God exists and remains among us. I don't require a miracle that would only bring attacks and derision from so-called Christians here.
The first nation to accept Christianity was Armenia. They aren't Catholic. Nor Eastern Orthodox. I do know there are "Christian only" movements that happen from time to time. There was one in Spain about 50-60 years ago that over time started identifying as the Church of Christ but just started out, without connecting to the U.S., studying the Bible and drew similar conclusions about being a Christian only with baptism, etc. I have also known brethren who strongly believe that unless one learns "the truth" and is baptized by a Church of Christ minister then he's not truly a Christian. I no longer accept that.
FromOffTheStreets
Well-Known Member
I'm glad you have seen the light! Certain groups think that "their way" is the only way (Jesus name only baptism & tongues is the last one i encountered). None of these groups can see into the heart, only God can do that.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
Not true at all...
It's in the Great Commission..."Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.. When one obeys the gospel today,(becomes a Christian) it is by the authority that has been given by all three of the Godhead.
Bridesmaid? The Holy Spirit is certainly active. The issue which is how he is active today. The gifts you state here some are listed in 1 Cor.12. You posted that in another comment, will comment there.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
Maybe it would help to start with V13.."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or tree; and have been all made ft drink into one Spirit "(1 Con 12:13).
The phrase "by one Spirit" means "by the influence or direction of the Spirit." How does one receive that influence and direction? Be honest and focus on the reality of that.
The Holy Spirit directs men through the word of God. To state the Spirit leads by a strong and subjective feeling today is not according to scripture.The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit guides and directs us through the revealed word of God. The Holy Spirit directly "guided" the apostles into all truth (John 14:26; 16:13). We can know the truth by reading what they wrote.
The one Holy Spirit has given the same instructions to all men. That's why I can say that @Integrity is a liar when he claims God speaks directly to him. Not only does God not work that way today, but he says God tells him things that are in direct conflict of what the Apostles wrote.The guidance which the Holy Spirit has given is found in the New Testament, not by false claims by false influencers.
What this verse is teaching.. Under the teaching and direction of the Holy Spirit of God, men have been baptized into Jesus Christ. As a result of their having been baptized, the blood of Christ has washed away their sins and Jesus has added them to his church.
"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant" (1 Cor. 12:1).
Paul's plea for knowledge concerning "spiritual gifts," ignorance of "spiritual gifts" continues today. It has led many to teach and practice things contrary to God's word.
Only two ways divine intervention takes place that I know of. Miraculous and natural.
I think you misunderstand the nature of spiritual gifts in chapter 12. The nature of the gifts involved the supernatural and not the natural. Things that are done through natural ability cannot be called "spiritual gifts." You can learn to speak a foreign language through natural ability by thoroughly studying the language. But, the gift of "divers kinds of tongues" involved speaking in a language that one did not know and had not studied (cf. Acts 2:5-13)"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant" (1 Cor. 12:1).
Paul's plea for knowledge concerning "spiritual gifts," ignorance of "spiritual gifts" continues today. It has led many to teach and practice things contrary to God's word.
Only two ways divine intervention takes place that I know of. Miraculous and natural.
You misunderstand the purpose of spiritual gifts here. The purpose of spiritual gifts is clearly seen in scripture. Mark says"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and con-firming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20). Gifts of a spiritual nature that were miraculous, were given by the Spirit of God to early disciples to confirm the spoken word of God. God, through the Holy Spirit, provided man with both a complete revelation and the external signs (miracles) made it credible.
As I said in another comment about chapter 13, you reject the duration of these gifts. Again, one of the reasons the age miracles ended is because they served the purpose that God intended.Since the word of God is now in the book, we do not need the miraculous given by the Spirit. Also, there are no apostles now to impart gifts.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
God answers prayer by His divine providential care.
Providence differs from a miracle in that its ends are brought about by means of the established laws of God through ordinary channels and ways. Providence is the preservation and care which God exercises over all things that he has created in order that they may accomplish the end for which they were created.
I like what Jesus says about God taking care of us. Jesus gives proof of divine providence to the Christian in Matthew 6:24-34. In verse 25 he tells us to take no thought (or be not anxious) for our lives, about what we will eat, drink, or put on; God, who gave us our lives and our bodies, will give us food and raiment.
Jesus isn't teaching laziness here. We are to work, doing our best (Eph. 4:28), then leave the rest to God.
In verse 26 Jesus tells us to "behold the fowls of the air",- God feeds them, and we are of much more value than fowls, so God will feed and take care of us.
In verse 27 Jesus says that worry will not add one cubit to our stature, so to worry about what we are going to eat, drink or wear is needless because God will provide it through his providence.
In verses 31 and 32 he tells us that God knows we have need of food, drink and clothing, so we are not to worry about them like the Gentiles do because we know that God will supply them.
Jesus then gives the Christian the proper course to pursue in verse 33: "but seek Ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" and God, through his providence, will supply our temporal needs. He said, "Take therefore no thought for the morrow" (v. 34), because God will providentially care for us.
Integrity
Binge Poster
FromOffTheStreets
Well-Known Member
The thief on the cross is the destroyer of man made religious dogma.
C of C - 5 step plan with baptism the defining
Apostolic - Jesus only baptism with holy ghost
Catholic - sacraments
Liberals - create your own salvation
On & on...
I don't see a problem with creating these systems leading towards salvation, but to claim everyone outside of MY system is lost elevates men to a place that wasn't made for them.
There are people in every one of these systems that haven't bent their knee to God. They think their system gets them in.
C of C - 5 step plan with baptism the defining
Apostolic - Jesus only baptism with holy ghost
Catholic - sacraments
Liberals - create your own salvation
On & on...
I don't see a problem with creating these systems leading towards salvation, but to claim everyone outside of MY system is lost elevates men to a place that wasn't made for them.
There are people in every one of these systems that haven't bent their knee to God. They think their system gets them in.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
I was very sincere in asking the question. You, unlike @Integrity , knew better than to make a fool of yourself, so you refused to answer.
God has answered many of my prayers. Many have been answered no. But, all of my prayers have been answered. But, like the persistent widow, I continue to ask. I have faith that God will answer when He's ready.
None of my prayers or yours have been answered by means of a miracle. The word of God has taught me better.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
Shut up. You inject stupidity. The church of Christ is the only church that Christ established. It's found in the New Testament.
Address the comment. Stop throwing the scent off of the discussion.
Integrity
Binge Poster
The link I posted provides an alternative point of view to the one you stated. That’s all.
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
I deny the C of C has a 5 step system. I affirm the Bible teaches there are 5 things a person does to become a Christian.
The thief on the cross does not destroy anything that pertains to your salvation.
"Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom."
"Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." I believe that the Bible teaches that the thief was saved.
Is the thief on the cross the lone exception to gospel obedience? In the New Testament cases of conversion, those who were converted were baptized. That baptism was a part of conversion in the New Testament, read the accounts of the conversion of the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:38), the Samaritans (Acts 8:12, 13), Saul of Tarsus (Acts 22:16), Cornelius (Acts 10:47, 48), Lydia (Acts 16:15), the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:33), and of those converted in Corinth (Acts 18:8). and Ephesus (Acts 19:3-5).
If you're trying to reject baptism as a condition of salvation and think you can be saved like the thief was saved, by saying the thief was not baptized. Be careful. What does the Bible teach?
He may have been baptized. But, it would have been John's baptism.
Every convert about whose conversion we can read in the book of Acts was baptized.
John the Baptist had baptized many in the area of Jerusalem. "Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about the Jordan; they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mt. 3:5, 6). Mark adds, "John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. And there went out unto him ALL the country of Judea, and ALL they of Jerusalem; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk. 1: 4, 5). Was the thief among those baptized by John? I don't know. Do you?
Jesus nearly had completed his ministry on earth when he told the thief, "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Included in Jesus' preaching was the commandment to be baptized. "When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples), he left Judea, and departed again unto Galilee" (John 4: 1-3). Jesus made and baptized many disciples. The Bible says that he "was making AND BAPTIZING MORE DISCIPLES THAN JOHN." I can't prove that he was't among these. Can you?
Before you stake your salvation without baptism on the thief on the cross, you might want to be able to prove the thief was not baptized
Keep in mind that the thief lived under the Old Testament. The writer of the book of Hebrews argues that a change of law was made. "For the Priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Heb. 7:12). Hebrews 9:16, 17 tell us when this change of law was effected. "For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it. For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth." Paul, in Rom. 7:4, said: "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ." Prior to the death of Christ, the Old Testament was in force. After his death, the New Testament became effective.
We live in the New Testament era. When Jesus said "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" the thief was under the Old Testament, since this remark was made prior to the death of Christ. Whatever might be shown to be true concerning the salvation of the thief is of no relevance to our salvation, since he lived under a different law from that under which people today live.
Was Abraham , Moses and David saved without baptism? Of coarse. Baptism is made a condition of salvation under the New Testament. It was not a condition of salvation under the Old Testament, the law under which Abraham, Moses, David and the thief lived
Jesus taught in Matt. 9:1-8 that he had authority on earth to forgive sins. He said, "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saitk he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go unto thy house" (Matt. 9:6). The palsied man was not told to be baptized, nor was he commanded to believe, or to repent. While Jesus was on earth, be could dispense of his spiritual goods on any terms that be saw fit.
While Jesus was yet on earth, He could forgive sins.
Before you die, you can do with your property as you choose. Your will becomes effective after you die.
But after the death of the testator ( Hebrews ), his goods are bestowed according to the terms of his will. Different conditions for receiving God's blessings were imposed upon different individuals during the personal ministry of Christ, and in some instances, no conditions at all were imposed.
After the death of Christ, a new law (testament) became effective. His spiritual blessings were then imparted according to the terms of his will. No longer was there a diversity of conditions imposed. Under the New Testament, the same things are required of every individual. Before the household of Cornelius Peter declared, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him" (Acts 10: 34, 35). God only has one plan of salvation now, and that plan is revealed in the gospel of Christ (Rom. 1: 16). One of the conditions of that plan of salvation is that one be baptized for the remission of sins. Peter taught that "every one of you" must "repent and be baptized" in the name of Christ "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2: 38).
The question is, "what must I do to be saved?" The answer is not," I want to e saved like the thief o the cross." You cannot. It is impossible. How does the Bible answer? Since the death of Christ, men have lived under the New Testament, and by that testament we shall- be judged (John 12:48).
BrownFlush
Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
I hope.
bottomups
Bad Moon Risen'
All religions are a cult. You're all indoctrinated.
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