Snowden: american hero

[804brown]

Is Edward Snowden a Hero? A Debate with Journalist Chris Hedges & Law Scholar Geoffrey Stone | Democracy Now!

 

[klein]

He gave up his American citizenship, so no, can't call him an American Hero.

 

[wkmac]

Cheney/Bush has nothing to do with it. And they spied of Foreign nationals as they were authorized to do under the Patriot Act. Not US citizens. Big difference. And Obama greatly expended the original Patriot Act and went far beyond its original intent. And I would still call Snowden a traitor even if Bush was still President.

Evidence is starting to build that may call that claim into question. Even in 2005' it was being reported that Bush was aware of spying on US citizens in general and not in specific. The claim that Bush and Cheney had nothing to do with it and that no US citizens were involved is not holding up as evidence builds and comes out to public disclosure.

And another former NSA employee on the matter.

Former employees of the National Security Agency say the publishing of a court order asking Verizon to hand over all its phone calling records for a three-month period opens a new window on an operation that has been in place for years and involves all major U.S. phone companies. "NSA has been doing all this stuff all along, and it's been all these companies, not just one" William Binney told news program Democracy Now on Thursday. "They're just continuing the collection of this data on all U.S. citizens."
Binney, who worked at the NSA for almost 40 years, left the agency after the attacks of 9/11 because he objected to the expansion of its surveillance of U.S. citizens.

And this all began well before 9/11. Just in the Clinton years alone, the FBI had Carnivore and the NSA/US Intelligence has had Echelon or something like it for decades. As the cold war ended, a few people warned that these systems were being used now to spy on Americans and the cat calls of "Conspiracy theorist, lunatic, nutjob, etc. were the reply. Well now we know conspiracy theory can in time come to be proven as conspiracy fact.

May 1999' the NY Times ran a piece on concerns being voiced about Echelon and the Clinton administration spying on the American public. It's worth noting that in the 2005' NY Times piece linked above, the NYT seems to condemn Bush and Cheney and yet in the 1999' NYT piece on Echelon, the same paper seems to defend the practice.

Funny how politics works but then if one goes and does the research on the relationship of the NYTimes among others with the US Intelligence community and Operation Mockingbird, one may begin to understand way beyond the tired and worn out, "left wing, liberal bias media" retort.

What Snowden is telling is really not new at all if one is willing to dig a little and put the pieces together. He's nothing more than a confirmation of what was already known. Snowden claims to really big stuff is yet to hit so I'm waiting to see what that is. I admire his appearing to be willing to give it all up so to speak to warn the American public of their condition. His motives on the surface sure seem genuine but again much of those facts were already out there to begin with. Calling him hero or traitor IMO is yet to be fully determined.

Now I do consider Manning as hero but then like others, I don't wear red, white and blue glasses anymore either because the people in power took off their red, white and blue glasses a long, long, long, long.............time ago. The fact that the people in power regardless of party are not patriotic so to speak, truly loyal to place and people, is the real revelation and the Ellsbergs, Mannings, Sibel Edmonds and Snowdens are just exposing that fact and truth to the American public but the cognitive dissonance has said people twisted in knots!

 

[oldngray]

Manning is without a question a traitor. He took an oath when he entered military service so must be held to a higher standard. Hid breaking that oath makes him a traitor. Snowden is less so because he did not take that oath. Snowden is more like a little whiner wanting attention. I would consider him a traitor but in his situation it is more of a gray area. Not so with Manning. Traitor without a doubt.

 

[wkmac]

Manning is without a question a traitor. He took an oath when he entered military service so must be held to a higher standard. Hid breaking that oath makes him a traitor. Snowden is less so because he did not take that oath. Snowden is more like a little whiner wanting attention. I would consider him a traitor but in his situation it is more of a gray area. Not so with Manning. Traitor without a doubt.

Manning shamed the empire and for that he should get the medal of honor!


As to Snowden, seemed a number of former NSA whistleblowers are speaking out in support of his actions.

Russ Tice, former US Air Force, Office of Naval Intelligence and NSA whistleblower is interviewed by alternative media personality James Corbett of the Corbett Report. Here is the link to an hour long interview that is both eye opening and disturbing. Tice confirms Snowden but goes on to say that Congressmen and women of both parties, Federal Judges, even Supreme Court Judges were spied on. Raises questions about who hijacked David Petraeus emails on the affair.

Regardless of party or political bent, Tice gives pause why all of us should be concerned. Worth the hour if you have the courage to listen.

 

[wkmac]

For those of us who are old enough to remember the darker days of the Old Cold War era, here is a Snowden question turned in a direction that IMO makes a good point. From LRC Blog:

June 22, 2013

A Hypothetical Question or Two on Eduard Snowdenski

Posted by Michael S. Rozeff on June 22, 2013 01:58 AM

Suppose that during the Stalin regime in the USSR, Eduard Snowdenski was an analyst who worked for a bureau under the NKVD (People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs). Suppose that he decided to reveal to the Russian people the extent of the NKVD domestic spying apparatus that peopled the Gulag, or Main Directorate for Corrective Labor Camps, with prisoners.
How should Snowdenski do this? Should he report through NKVD channels, or should he defect?
Do you regard Snowdenski as a traitor if he defects to America and reveals the extent of the Russian domestic spying program?
Is Snowdenski a hero?
What is your opinion of those in the Kremlin who demand Snowdenski's head?
If Snowdenski defected to America and the USSR charged him with espionage, would you consider the charge valid?
Should America extradite him to the USSR?

 

[oldngray]

So is Obama Stalin? He is an incompetent ineffective liar but hasn't killed millions of his own people. Yet anyway.

 

[texan]

I read that WikiLeaks is assisting him.

One can not make this stuff up. Tom Clancy could not keep up with this whole thing.

WikiLeaks publisher Julian Assange on Sunday confirmed his organisation's involvement in Mr Snowden's sudden
departure from Hong Kong ahead of US government efforts to secure his extradition on espionage and other
charges arising from the leak of top secret US National Security Agency surveillance programs.

"Mr Snowden is flying in an Aeroflot aircraft over Russian airspace, accompanied by WikiLeaks legal advisers," Mr Assange said.

"He is expected to land in Moscow at 5pm, local time (11pm, 23 June, Eastern Australian Standard Time) and will
be met by diplomats from the country that will be his ultimate destination.

Diplomats from that country will accompany him on a further flight to his destination."

Read more: WikiLeaks helps move Snowden on

 

[Upsmule]

Good gawd what a ditz! UGH!

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi heckled over Snowden comment - YouTube

 

[wkmac]

Good gawd what a ditz! UGH!

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi heckled over Snowden comment - YouTube

Well that's no secret but what's great is the crowd booing her down. Now that in itself is a really good sign. The American public just as a matter of principle need to start booing our so-called leaders down regardless of political party.

 

[moreluck]

Interesting points, in addition to the “why charge espionage so early”? Politically, it would have made it harder to seek extradition from Hong Kong. Nothing would have inhibited U.S. from charging it at a later date, if they chose to do so.

Via NY Times:

David H. Laufman, a former federal prosecutor in the United States, said it appeared that the Obama administration had flubbed Mr. Snowden’s case in at least two ways.

“What mystifies me is that the State Department didn’t revoke his passport after the charges were filed” on June 14, Mr. Laufman said. “They missed an opportunity to freeze him in place.”

He also expressed puzzlement at the decision to unseal the criminal charges on Friday, possibly prompting Mr. Snowden to flee. The standard practice in such cases is to unseal the charges only after the defendant is in custody, he said.
​

 

[wkmac]

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers are concealed from them."

Patrick Henry circa 1788'

 

[804brown]

FOCUS | Edward Snowden's Ordeal Is Just Beginning

 

[804brown]

So When will Dick Cheney be charged with Espionage? His Crime was the Same as Snowden's | Informed Comment

 

[oldngray]

Cheney committed no crimes. No matter how much you hate him. Obama did selectively leak information but in neither case was it classified or did they violate any oaths although Obama did bend the laws some in attempts to promote himself. Your hero Snowden committed criminal acts and fled to countries where it is expected for the government to spy on its own citizens. But you conveniently ignore that fact.

 

[804brown]

Cheney committed no crimes. No matter how much you hate him. Obama did selectively leak information but in neither case was it classified or did they violate any oaths although Obama did bend the laws some in attempts to promote himself. Your hero Snowden committed criminal acts and fled to countries where it is expected for the government to spy on its own citizens. But you conveniently ignore that fact.

Cheney is also a war criminal and a liar. Anyway There's a New Fascism on the Rise, and the NSA Leaks Show Us What It Looks Like | Alternet

 

[wkmac]

How deep does the NSA rabbit hole go?


Whistleblower: NSA wiretapped Obama, Petraeus, Alito, others - YouTube

 

[wkmac]

Where in the world is [-]Carmen Sandiego[/-] Eric Snowden?

Media Ignoring Second NSA Whistleblower - James Corbett on Press TV - YouTube

 

[brett636]

Snowden is a fool if he thinks staying in Moscow is a safe bet. Putin will only protect him for as long as he deems it beneficial to do so, then he will turn him over to the U.S. if he gets something he wants like dismantling of our missile defense shield or another major reduction in nukes both of which Obama may do just to get Snowden back here. Bottom line is Putin cannot be trusted.

 

[island1fox]

Snowden is a fool if he thinks staying in Moscow is a safe bet. Putin will only protect him for as long as he deems it beneficial to do so, then he will turn him over to the U.S. if he gets something he wants like dismantling of our missile defense shield or another major reduction in nukes both of which Obama may do just to get Snowden back here. Bottom line is Putin cannot be trusted.

brett,

Remember --Hillary and Barack set the re-set button with Putin and Russia---they could not even get that right.

Putin looks at Obama as a weak la-la land Liberal and will take full advantage of not just Snowden --but Our fearless leader as well.

In Obama's mind --we are loved in all corners of the known world because of Him !!!