The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming!

newfie

Well-Known Member
If the Ukrainians are deep down Russians as some have suggested , then yes Chechens are still bent on killing Russians.
the sad truth as i find out is that most of us dont really understand the regional issues and the more i research it the more i find out how complicated the regional and political issues there are.
but the world does understand that a bully is trying to violate a country that did nothing wrong.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
a big part of the problem here is that the Ukraine has been corrupt as a free nation
they have totally mismanaged their country
they have ignored and mistreated the pro russian sections of their country.

Had they fixed those issues they may very well have been part of NATO and not going through this hell.

that said its still incredibly wrong for a Russia to invade a nation unprovoked.
No argument yet.

Where does your information come from?

Is the United States a free nation?

Can you draw any parallels or similarities.

Just provoking thought at this time.
 

newfie

Well-Known Member
No argument yet.

Where does your information come from?

Is the United States a free nation?

Can you draw any parallels or similarities.

Just provoking thought at this time.
the short answer is we want to be a free nation but we have learned to overgovern ourselves.

and truth be told there are times we force our government to be something else than what we claim we want.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
the short answer is we want to be a free nation but we have learned to overgovern ourselves.

and truth be told there are times we force our government to be something else than what we claim we want.
In short

Are we two different factions, not divided by slavery but deeper issues that we cannot absolve without the destruction of our union whether by time or seccession. @Box Ox (Got a memory?)

Just a question in search of a response.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I found the youtube video on crimea interesting . the russians who are dictators in every way were able to not only enlist crimean support but buy their unwavering loyalty simply by showing a legitimate concern for addressing their needs.

so a dictatorship won over a country with democratic processes.
a governing body tried to actually do their job and won over support of the population
Crimea has a high percentage of ethnic Russians. It's the Russian MO. They carved off a couple of areas of Georgia that were mostly ethnic Russians. Ukraine may have averted this war if they had allowed the Donbas region, mostly ethnic Russian, to gain their independence. If Putin is successful in Ukraine it may be a matter of time before he invades northern Kazakhstan. Mostly ethnic Russian and their most productive farmland.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
Crimea has a high percentage of ethnic Russians. It's the Russian MO. They carved off a couple of areas of Georgia that were mostly ethnic Russians. Ukraine may have averted this war if they had allowed the Donbas region, mostly ethnic Russian, to gain their independence. If Putin is successful in Ukraine it may be a matter of time before he invades northern Kazakhstan. Mostly ethnic Russian and their most productive farmland.
I've got a question Van.
I'm breaking what I do always for this.

Is ukraine a nation unto itself?
If so for how long?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I've got a question Van.
I'm breaking what I do always for this.

Is ukraine a nation unto itself?
If so for how long?
And I'll reply with a question. Are the current political borders the same borders that have always been? For thousands of years? Take the Kurds. Largest ethnic group in the world without its own nation. Spread across in significant numbers 4 or 5 nations. They have revolted numerous times which have been put down by various governments. Take Armenia. Once much larger but land taken away by the Turks who tried to kill all of them at one point. In terms of years or decades things may seem set in stone but over time things are fluid and whether a nation remains the same depends on its ability to defend its borders.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
And I'll reply with a question. Are the current political borders the same borders that have always been? For thousands of years? Take the Kurds. Largest ethnic group in the world without its own nation. Spread across in significant numbers 4 or 5 nations. They have revolted numerous times which have been put down by various governments. Take Armenia. Once much larger but land taken away by the Turks who tried to kill all of them at one point. In terms of years or decades things may seem set in stone but over time things are fluid and whether a nation remains the same depends on its ability to defend its borders.
I have no idea.

That said, the USSR has not existed for thousands of years.
Nations have borders, many, actually most negotiated after a war.
That said, any person or family after a negotiated treaty, borders included has the duty to relocate where they wish, (choose) to live if not by default you become a subject (citizen) of your choice of residency or location.

Is that a reasonable statement or idea?
Is that a basis of moving forward?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Your video illustrates that in areas where there's a Russian majority they are happy to be a part of Russia again. When I traveled through former Soviet republics I was speaking to local ethnic majorities. I never asked them how they felt about Russians, they just volunteered their hatred. When the Soviet Union was formed Russia moved their citizens in significant numbers to outlying republics. They ran everything and kept the best of everything for themselves. The Soviet Union may have pushed the image of a brotherhood, of comrades, but it was a Russian empire. And that has resulted in a backlash against Russians in the now independent republics. That's why those ethnic Russians in Crimea are happy to be back in the Russian fold again. And why any former Soviet republic that shares a border with Russia and with a significant Russian minority should be very concerned.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I have no idea.

That said, the USSR has not existed for thousands of years.
Nations have borders, many, actually most negotiated after a war.
That said, any person or family after a negotiated treaty, borders included has the duty to relocate where they wish, (choose) to live if not by default you become a subject (citizen) of your choice of residency or location.

Is that a reasonable statement or idea?
Is that a basis of moving forward?
That's reasonable but when you're sitting right next to a country run by an ultra nationalist, and you have a significant minority that's the same ethnicity as that ultra nationalist, and he has a serious military at his disposal, things can get very interesting.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
@vantexan
I answered your question
I don't know is an acceptable answer to these.

The land mass that Ukraine encompasses, what nations have laid claim to any of their lands they currenty claim control of.

After the dissolution of the USSR what borders were negotiated or given to Ukraine, which countries held claim to this area before USSR annexation.
In short was it tribal land with no national affliation.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
That's reasonable but when you're sitting right next to a country run by an ultra nationalist, and you have a significant minority that's the same ethnicity as that ultra nationalist, and he has a serious military at his disposal, things can get very interesting.
It can, and they have.
That said, are they two separate countries, with no wall as in Belin, is movement free?
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
@vantexan
I answered your question
I don't know is an acceptable answer to these.

The land mass that Ukraine encompasses, what nations have laid claim to any of their lands they currenty claim control of.

After the dissolution of the USSR what borders were negotiated or given to Ukraine, which countries held claim to this area before USSR annexation.
In short was it tribal land with no national affliation.
The Ukrainian capital Kiev was the capital of the first Russian empire. Russians still feel a very strong affinity for the area. Most everyone in the country speaks Russian but Ukrainians are a separate ethnic group with their own language. Ukrainian is much more likely to be spoken as a first language in western Ukraine than in eastern where there are a lot more ethnic Russians. Khrushchev gave the Crimean Peninsula to the Ukraine Soviet republic. Not certain of the reasoning for that but I suspect it was a way to make up for Stalin starving millions of Ukrainians to death.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
They have been two separate countries for more than 30 years.
I understand that.
In my initial question you mentioned 1000 years and such, things not associated with my question.
This is a reframed question, If you hang I will get the response I want and is true.
Just a workaround, done it a thousand times.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
I understand that.
In my initial question you mentioned 1000 years and such, things not associated with my question.
This is a reframed question, If you hang I will get the response I want and is true.
Just a workaround, done it a thousand times.
Just ask me a direct question and if I know the answer I will tell you. I've pretty much said all I know on the subject. It's impossible to frame what a country will look like in 30 years even if it looked like something the past 30. The U.S. is a perfect example. What we look like today bears no resemblance to what we looked like in 1776. The rest came through both purchase and conquest. The country of Panama used to belong to Colombia. Bolivia used to have access to the Pacific. Things change and it's usually due to war with belligerent neighbors. Look at Africa. Borders set by colonial powers that often resulted in conflict between ethnic groups. What is now Germany in Europe was once a conglomeration of many principalities. Western Ukraine was once controlled by the Polish Empire then the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. What was once India is now India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Things change and the only constant is our ability to defend the status quo.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
Just ask me a direct question and if I know the answer I will tell you.
Since I asked the question I researched a bit
History of Ukraine - Ukraine.com

Bottom line
In July 1990 a declaration of sovereignty was passed by the Ukrainian parliament, and in August 1991 Ukraine was declared to be independent of the Soviet Union. Leonid Kravchuk became the first president of Ukraine in December 1991.

Kinda like 1776, kinda like when a chick leaves you, any bitches and ho's that wanted to be a part of Russia should have and have had plenty of time to vote with their feet.

I'm a dick like that.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Since I asked the question I researched a bit
History of Ukraine - Ukraine.com

Bottom line
In July 1990 a declaration of sovereignty was passed by the Ukrainian parliament, and in August 1991 Ukraine was declared to be independent of the Soviet Union. Leonid Kravchuk became the first president of Ukraine in December 1991.

Kinda like 1776, kinda like when a chick leaves you, any bitches and ho's that wanted to be a part of Russia should have and have had plenty of time to vote with their feet.

I'm a dick like that.
If you're in an area dominated by ethnic Russians, are you if Ukrainian obligated to leave your home and move to an area that's majority Ukrainian? If you're an ethnic Russian but Ukrainian citizen at the declaration of independence are you required to move to Russia? If you gave it a chance but found over time that the majority Ukrainians are treating you badly because of your ethnicity are you obligated to either take it or leave your home and move away? Or can you revolt against the poor treatment and declare yourself independent? The ethnic Russians in Ukraine aren't totally innocent and neither are the Ukrainians. This isn't the kind of world where you just rent a Uhaul and move away to a job in greener pastures. Roots grow deep there. And moving away from an established home and livelihood may mean poverty elsewhere. There aren't easy choices and certainly not the kind of choices we take for granted as Americans.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
If you're in an area dominated by ethnic Russians, are you if Ukrainian obligated to leave your home and move to an area that's majority Ukrainian? If you're an ethnic Russian but Ukrainian citizen at the declaration of independence are you required to move to Russia? If you gave it a chance but found over time that the majority Ukrainians are treating you badly because of your ethnicity are you obligated to either take it or leave your home and move away? Or can you revolt against the poor treatment and declare yourself independent? The ethnic Russians in Ukraine aren't totally innocent and neither are the Ukrainians. This isn't the kind of world where you just rent a Uhaul and move away to a job in greener pastures. Roots grow deep there. And moving away from an established home and livelihood may mean poverty elsewhere. There aren't easy choices and certainly not the kind of choices we take for granted as Americans.
Doubtful any of that is true.
So called Russian's and so called Ukranians marry freely, live lives happily, raise families.
Seriously what the hell is the difference, could it be worse than the left and right in our country?

Putin wants Ukraine, he wants the Socialist Republic revived, not so difficult to understand, bits and pieces.

That is my understanding.
He covets what was lost, time will bear this statement out.
Book it.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
If you're in an area dominated by ethnic Russians, are you if Ukrainian obligated to leave your home and move to an area that's majority Ukrainian? If you're an ethnic Russian but Ukrainian citizen at the declaration of independence are you required to move to Russia? If you gave it a chance but found over time that the majority Ukrainians are treating you badly because of your ethnicity are you obligated to either take it or leave your home and move away? Or can you revolt against the poor treatment and declare yourself independent? The ethnic Russians in Ukraine aren't totally innocent and neither are the Ukrainians. This isn't the kind of world where you just rent a Uhaul and move away to a job in greener pastures. Roots grow deep there. And moving away from an established home and livelihood may mean poverty elsewhere. There aren't easy choices and certainly not the kind of choices we take for granted as Americans.
I don't play those games, many Ukranians are fleeing as we speak.
I don't buy your scenario, any of it.
 
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