The State of the "Union"

['Lord Brown's bidding']

Another thought: rather than target those who choose to give their money away, why not get those less involved to act. For example, can,casual and cover drivers grieve supes working? It is in their best interest cause otherwise they may not work. It's one thing to get someone who has a stable career with UPS to worry about things like skipping lunch; however, supes still work. Why aren't those with a direct benefit being involved more? Do they know they can? I'd never have gotten paid for less than five days as a newbie if I had known I could grieve a supe taking out misloads, and I am sure after a grievance or two they'd probably rather just give me work and earn my pay, rather than pay two people for a job one of them did.

 

[InsideUPS]

You've pretty much summarized the Corporate line against pensions, and it's pretty much all wrong. Corporations have shed pensions because they no longer feel any obligation to their employees after retirement (and not much before), not because they are inherently risky. Any pension that falls into the PBGC will receive, in most cases, more than 50% just look at these tables: Maximum Monthly Annuity Guarantees, Pension Benefits The limits are set by ERISA each year. Sure, it's not a dollar-for-dollar guarantee, but it's a lot better than nothing which is exactly what your 401k could bring you.

401k's have been sold to employees as a "better" alternative to Pensions, but really they are not nearly as secure and often fail to live up to the hype. If UPS were to replace our Pension with a typical 3-5% match that would cut their current obligation under the WCT by almost $15000 per year per full time employee. Great deal for Scott huh! Also, several times in every quarterly 401k statement it mentions in bold: NOT FDIC INSURED, NOT BANK-GUARANTEED, MAY LOSE VALUE because people like yourself seem to have some inpression their money is safe in a 401K. The only way to come close to making sure it's "safe" is to put it in the Stable Value Fund and watch inflation eat it all up (which I have seen more than one mis-informed co-worker do). What a deal! Then, of course, you are forgetting that putting $1 into the regular 401k fund is more like $.68 in retirement because it's taxed, and putting $1 into a Roth 401k is an actual dollar, but that assumes that Congress won't renege on the deal to tax that money in the future which might be quite a gamble in the current climate.

Our WCT pension doesn't need to be mobile, as if you are vested (5 years) it's there when you need it and since it's a multi-employer plan you can work for any participating employer and your money is going into the same plan. Mobility has been sold as a false benefit, as in the past working for different employers produced multiple pension payments at retirement so what's the problem? I know of many Teamsters who will be receiving a WCT pension as well as a pension from their military service, I don't see them complaining about mobility.

Pensions are designed to reward employees for long service and loyalty, something valued in companies with long solid histories like UPS. All 401k's & mobility have done is cause every wise employee to be looking for the next job once they land the first one....this is better?

I'll stick with my Western Conference of Teamsters Pension plan in addition to a Roth 401k thank you very much.

Hmmmm........you speak highly of your WCT Pension Plan....hope it continues to work out for you....now and in the future. however, not quite the same with Central States Pension Plan...

https://www.tdu.org/news/could-central-states-pension-fund-go-insolvent

104Feeder states "Any pension that falls into the PBGC will receive, in most cases, more than 50% just look at these tables:

The ConsequencesOver 213,000 retirees depend on the fund for their promised retirement after a lifetime of Teamster work. Another 67,000 active members have been promised a pension in the future. If the fund becomes insolvent, Teamsters would be dependent on the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), which has a maximum payout per month of $1,080 for a Teamster with 30 years credit.

Conclusion: NOT ALL Pension Plans are created equal.....not all pension plans are secure...

 

[104Feeder]

This is incorrect. Pensions are/were more of a "thank-you" rather than reward. They are from a different time, when employees were viewed as family, and one-a boss or owner who had a personal relationship with his employees, and felt responsible to them as one might am elderly family member. Even in larger settings where such personal relationships were not possible those at the head often came up in similar situations, and an impression was made on them that they applied.

Nowadays the system is different. Nobody WANTS to work for one company anymore, or at least it seems that way. People are more independent, wanting to do what best fits them and their vision of how theor life works out. Rather than look for "jobs" they speak of "careers"-which are more broader in scope and can involve working with many different "jobs" w companies. They are more educated, including in financual matters, and want to have more say than a pension, or even a 401k can offer sometimes. They are planning to take care of themselves, and don't need their company to offer to take care of them.

in additional, those who are in charge aren't as exposed to other types/viewpoints as the CEOs of the times when pensions became popular, thus they cannot relate. They feel everyone can get an education and do what they do, and start their own/be appointed to run someone else's co, and if not well, life's unfair. Their job is to make money-not products, or offer services; they aren't always passionate about their fields, and thus have no connection to those who work for them. Thus, a pension is just an expense to hold them back from doing their jobs of making money-and an expense more and more are not very concerned about, in their independence. Everyone would like a pension just as everyone hopes social security will be there;they just aren't banking (pun intended) on it.

I completely disagree. When you approach someone who supposedly looks at life & work as you say and tell them what we have at UPS, I have yet to have anyone not express that they wish they had that. I'm sure anyone that has gone through job loss and protracted unemployment would disagree that things are better now. Certainly the Seniority system that protects our jobs is attractive to those who saw others kept on at a Company because they were younger and would work for less (boy do they have an awakening coming when they become the older more expensive worker). Sure, Corporations today have been able to push this view that no one should expect anything from their employer when they retire & shouldn't expect any loyalty, and America is weaker because of it. I'm sure the pendulum will swing back as Corporations finally realize the costs of having such a mercenary workforce.

 

[104Feeder]

Hmmmm........you speak highly of your WCT Pension Plan....hope it continues to work out for you....now and in the future. however, not quite the same with Central States Pension Plan...

https://www.tdu.org/news/could-central-states-pension-fund-go-insolvent

104Feeder states "Any pension that falls into the PBGC will receive, in most cases, more than 50% just look at these tables:

The ConsequencesOver 213,000 retirees depend on the fund for their promised retirement after a lifetime of Teamster work. Another 67,000 active members have been promised a pension in the future. If the fund becomes insolvent, Teamsters would be dependent on the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), which has a maximum payout per month of $1,080 for a Teamster with 30 years credit.

Conclusion: NOT ALL Pension Plans are created equal.....not all pension plans are secure...

Yes I am very proud of the WCT pension plan and I have no doubts in the management in the plans. Perhaps you should look to the history of the CSPF and see why it is in such disarray and why that cannot happen now.

Apparently, though you can quote my text, you cannot be bothered to look at the link to the tables which would show that the information you quoted from TDU (as usual) is completely incorrect.

Nowhere did I say that all pension plans are created equal or secure, just that they are more secure than 401k's. If all were secure, there would be no need for the PBGC. If all were created equal the WCTPF would be just a humdrum example. A few bad apples just shows the need for regulations they have put in place, not the need to junk the whole system. If you want to fix 401k's then I have more than a few ideas.

 

[InsideUPS]

Yes I am very proud of the WCT pension plan and I have no doubts in the management in the plans. Perhaps you should look to the history of the CSPF and see why it is in such disarray and why that cannot happen now.

Apparently, though you can quote my text, you cannot be bothered to look at the link to the tables which would show that the information you quoted from TDU (as usual) is completely incorrect.

Nowhere did I say that all pension plans are created equal or secure, just that they are more secure than 401k's. If all were secure, there would be no need for the PBGC. If all were created equal the WCTPF would be just a humdrum example. A few bad apples just shows the need for regulations they have put in place, not the need to junk the whole system. If you want to fix 401k's then I have more than a few ideas.

Actually 104Feeder, I did look at the PBGC tables. I am well aware of the skewed insight that TDU can publish which is why I always check multiple sources such as this one for example:Big changes coming to multi-employer pension plans: Teamsters OK greater use of “hybrid” plans - Article from Logistics Management

BTW....I'm sure that you are also aware that the New England Pension Fund is also having financial difficulty so it's not just CSPF.

From Logistics Management

Thomas G. Nyhan, administrator for the Central States plan, testified two years ago before the Senate HELP Committee that his plan is in “unprecedented financial crisis.” If no action is taken, Nyhan said his fund could be insolvent in the next 10-15 years.

Nyhan testified that Central States had an operating loss of $2.2 billion in one recent year. It pays out annual benefits of $2.9 billion, but only has annual employer contributions of $675 million.

As of February 2011, Central States had just 54,698 active workers to 214,243 retirees—a ratio of 1 active to 4 retirees vs. the 4 actives to 1 retiree in 1980.

Aitken is recommending trucking companies belonging to such plans to try and join a hybrid attribution plan. That could save employers up to 40 percent of withdrawal liability, Aitken said.

Aitken is president of the Multi-Employer Pension Plan Alliance (MEPPA), which represents companies trying to obtain relief from pension withdrawal liability.

Conclusion: In today's economic climate and as in most investing strategies, a diverse investment in a multitude of savings plans and other assets, (land, rentals, gold, etc.) is you best assurance against catastrophic financial loss. My intention here was express my personal belief about two types of investments. Your opening comment "You've pretty much summarized the Corporate line against pensions, and it's pretty much all wrong." sets the tone that ONLY your belief can be correct. My suggestion was that 401k's and similar investments give the employee more flexibility for example:

What are the disadvantages of a defined benefit plan? - Ultimate Guide to Retirement

There is truly no right or wrong to this debate. To each his own....based on risk tolerance, ability to invest, etc... What may be right for you....is not necessarily right for me and my investing style, wants, and ability...

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

I completely disagree. When you approach someone who supposedly looks at life & work as you say and tell them what we have at UPS, I have yet to have anyone not express that they wish they had that. I'm sure anyone that has gone through job loss and protracted unemployment would disagree that things are better now. Certainly the Seniority system that protects our jobs is attractive to those who saw others kept on at a Company because they were younger and would work for less (boy do they have an awakening coming when they become the older more expensive worker). Sure, Corporations today have been able to push this view that no one should expect anything from their employer when they retire & shouldn't expect any loyalty, and America is weaker because of it. I'm sure the pendulum will swing back as Corporations finally realize the costs of having such a mercenary workforce.

Apparently I wasn't clear, but I agree with most of this; where I only disagree is that it seems the young and upwardly mobile do not care, and it is among many of them you find such a hatred of unions. However, the average person, the ones who made up the middle class, I know they would like a chance at what we have here.

I do not think things are better now, no way. Pure greed, selfish- and self-centeredness is what is holding back many large companies from giving hundreds of thousands jobs. It is morally wrong, very unjust, but the system is so corrupt.

 

[104Feeder]

Actually 104Feeder, I did look at the PBGC tables. I am well aware of the skewed insight that TDU can publish which is why I always check multiple sources such as this one for example:Big changes coming to multi-employer pension plans: Teamsters OK greater use of “hybrid” plans - Article from Logistics Management

BTW....I'm sure that you are also aware that the New England Pension Fund is also having financial difficulty so it's not just CSPF.

From Logistics Management

Thomas G. Nyhan, administrator for the Central States plan, testified two years ago before the Senate HELP Committee that his plan is in “unprecedented financial crisis.” If no action is taken, Nyhan said his fund could be insolvent in the next 10-15 years.

Nyhan testified that Central States had an operating loss of $2.2 billion in one recent year. It pays out annual benefits of $2.9 billion, but only has annual employer contributions of $675 million.

As of February 2011, Central States had just 54,698 active workers to 214,243 retirees—a ratio of 1 active to 4 retirees vs. the 4 actives to 1 retiree in 1980.

Aitken is recommending trucking companies belonging to such plans to try and join a hybrid attribution plan. That could save employers up to 40 percent of withdrawal liability, Aitken said.

Aitken is president of the Multi-Employer Pension Plan Alliance (MEPPA), which represents companies trying to obtain relief from pension withdrawal liability.

Conclusion: In today's economic climate and as in most investing strategies, a diverse investment in a multitude of savings plans and other assets, (land, rentals, gold, etc.) is you best assurance against catastrophic financial loss. My intention here was express my personal belief about two types of investments. Your opening comment "You've pretty much summarized the Corporate line against pensions, and it's pretty much all wrong." sets the tone that ONLY your belief can be correct. My suggestion was that 401k's and similar investments give the employee more flexibility for example:

What are the disadvantages of a defined benefit plan? - Ultimate Guide to Retirement

There is truly no right or wrong to this debate. To each his own....based on risk tolerance, ability to invest, etc... What may be right for you....is not necessarily right for me and my investing style, wants, and ability...

The Central States had issues as soon as the mafia got their ugly hands on it. That fatally crippled the plan and no amount of savvy investing was going to save it. I can't reiterate enough that THE WESTERN CONFERENCE OF TEAMSTERS PENSION FUND IS IN NO WAY RELATED TO THE CENTRAL STATES PENSION FUND NOR IS IT IN ANY SORT OF PERIL WHATSOEVER. Point all you want to the CSPF as an example of the worst that can happen because it did. All sorts of protections are now in place to prevent that from re-occuring not the least of which is the near decimation of the mob by law enforcement.

Feel free to invest whatever you like of your income, whether it be in a 401k or any sort of exotic method you choose, but the vast majority of Americans (who are sadly inadequately saving for retirement) would benefit greatly from a defined benefit aka pension through their employer. The fact that you cite gold as a key investment of your retirement says to me that you have learned nothing from the recent financial crisis.

 

[UPS Lifer]

I'm sure Andy M would love to talk to you if you change your mind. BTW, you might look up Al Wittal since you're near Prescott.

That name sounds familiar. I want to say I remember him as a feeder driver who wore cowboy boots out of the LA area. I was in LU 396 and LU 63. I knew Randy when he left UPS as a manager and went to the union as a BA. We are going way back now!!!

 

[104Feeder]

That name sounds familiar. I want to say I remember him as a feeder driver who wore cowboy boots out of the LA area. I was in LU 396 and LU 63. I knew Randy when he left UPS as a manager and went to the union as a BA. We are going way back now!!!

Yes Al came out of the L.A. area, 63 I belive, and was our B.A. back in 2000 for a few years before he retired. If you want to send me an email addy (just make up a hotmail acct) I can send you a picture. Big guy, booming voice, old school slicked back hair and goatee; a true one-of-a-kind.

 

[UPS Lifer]

Yes Al came out of the L.A. area, 63 I belive, and was our B.A. back in 2000 for a few years before he retired. If you want to send me an email addy (just make up a hotmail acct) I can send you a picture. Big guy, booming voice, old school slicked back hair and goatee; a true one-of-a-kind.

I know who he is. He had a larger than life presence about him. I know we had a couple of friendly conversations but I am sure he would not remember me! I used to see him a lot. I worked in the Inland and Desert Divisions in late '80s, mid 90's and mid 2000's.