The Truth About Right to Work (for less) in Indiana

[804brown]

Indiana's war on labor | SocialistWorker.org

 

[AssistantSanta]

In New England, for example, UPS contributes $7.86 per hour to the Pension Plan, and $8.56 per hour to the Health and Welfare Plan when bargaining unit members work.

Which explains why union writes up and members keep ratifying questionable terms that you pointed out elsewhere. Some are expressing concerns that some are not too concerned about it. Those who are expressing concerns most likely have vested interest.

PTers, especially student workers who go to school during the day, work UPS at night and only work for the duration of schooling are not particularly concerned with pensions. Those who are concerned about supes working in their place, I suspect, are not concerned about them as much as ensuring their contribution to pensions.

Those who stand on the top of pyramid has a vested interest to ensure that the foundation of pyramid provides steady stream of funding that primarily benefits the top. Am I wrong?

 

[UPSSOCKS]

Wow, that was all you had for me. That's a pretty strong comeback for you.

We also teach children to walk, talk, use silverware and their manners at the table. I still want to see you teach a child how to do this and try and intimidate them like you say you do to your part timers. Just make sure you don't assist them when they have that 70 lb. pottery barn box, as that would be grounds for a grievance, ya know.

My people don't file greivances they have realized it's not in their best interest. I have a couple people that attempt to file, but I have a person in every corner that will sign off they were watching my supervisors for a favor here or there. My hands haven't got dirty in years so don't worry bout me helping.

I never said I intimidated anyone, most people know where they are at on the food chain.

It wasn't a comeback it's the truth. In most hubs around the company high school kids are performing theses jobs very effectively. They end up quitting and we replace them with another one for under $10 bucks an hour. As long as we don't fill the full time inside jobs and keep attracting high school kids we are set.

 

[UPSSOCKS]

really socks,, really? if your logic is correct than operations are all complete failures as the cannot "train ' us children to produce the correct numbers, and also , how hard can operations be, just do as your told on planning or the puppet masters will belittle you on conference call when their plan fails,,,and take your mip, oh, wait, no more mip..............

I don't follow. It's an easy job, that's why we can hire anyone and profit. It's a 100 year old company. It's a profitable company. It's the 129th? largest in the world. The conference calls and everyone thing else are nothing more than a check and balance system. If no one yelled on conference calls we would eventually let the company slip away.

 

[menotyou]

Some are expressing concerns that some are not too concerned about it. Those who are expressing concerns most likely have vested interest.

Very true

 

[menotyou]

I don't follow. It's an easy job, that's why we can hire anyone and profit. It's a 100 year old company. It's a profitable company. It's the 129th? largest in the world. The conference calls and everyone thing else are nothing more than a check and balance system. If no one yelled on conference calls we would eventually let the company slip away.

More people should put those conference calls on speakerphone.

 

[hypocrisy]

Even in the best years of Union membership (the peak about 35% in the 50's), most companies remain non-union. It's up to every workplace to decide if they want Union representation,As it is already in every RTW state. and highly arrogant of anyone who walks in later to say they should be able to 'opt out'. Much more arrogant for a Union to force someone to "opt in".

I said "workplace" not "worker". Once a workplace votes to unionize it is unconscionable for someone to soak up all the benefits and protections others fought & bled for without so much as contributing one dime. It's just spitting in the face of the workers who came before you.

Union shops never prevented anyone from earning a living,Only if you work in a right to work state justrequired -(read as forced)-them to play -(read as pay)-by the same rules everyone else does in that particular workplace. It's your choice to apply to work there and you are free to choose non-union workplaces. Thank You for making my point. In 1986, I applied to work at UPS and did not know it was a union "workplace". If I was not in a right to work state, I could not have even applied for the job, without being a union member.
Name one other example in America that demands you join and pay an organization, to be able to apply for a job.

Your ignorance should not be to our detriment.
As for other examples, lets start with Lawyers and the American Bar Association. Oh sure, their membership is 'voluntary' only in the legal sense but try and be a practicing lawyer without your bar card. Next lets go to Peace Officers and various POST (Peace Officer Standards & Training) boards. Without maintaining certified status, very similar to our membership, you cannot work as a police or correction officer. Many similar organizations skirt the Taft-Hartly act by not 'requiring' membership but the reality in the workplace is you aren't getting hired if you aren't a member. Police officer and Firefighters have "Associations" where Unions aren't allowed or accepted but without membership in the association your promotion prospects are limited. I guess if you like sitting on the side of the road watching some ditch diggers at a road construction site then not joining the association is the thing for you. Sorry the reality doesn't fit your fantasy.


RTW is absolutely a major reason declines have occurred and continue.Baloney, Texas is a right to work state and I have been an active member in 3 national unions. Money that could be used to organize members and gain workplace strength is instead sapped by freeloading workers.Freeloaders? You have not met the BA's, and the relatives they employ, in Texas. As a steward-( I too have represented the union position, at many a meeting)- for many, many years I can tell you that the non-union members are the first to whine about the contract they have no vote on and put no money into enforcing is being violated. I have heard a many union worker whine about the contract signed in 97'. They were lied to.

It's a BLS fact that Union membership declines in states with RTW laws, which is the only reason RTW exists (not to preserve some "right" that Business invented for you). Being an active member in 3 national unions in Texas does not diminish this fact at all. In fact, I'm wondering why you spread around the fact that you are from Texas at all. Ignorance is commonplace there, as demonstrated by GWB and the latest poster boy: Rick Perry. Perhaps you may consider keeping this fact to yourself. But thank you for pointing out another point, that by not being a member you do not have the right to vote in or out members of the executive board as well as stewards. Limited participation in any organizations leaves it as ripe pickings for those with questionable ethics. I have similar disdain for those who refuse to vote or participate in Government.

As to being lied to in 1997, I don't see where blanket indictments help your case. It's common knowledge in the rest of the country (apparently not in Texas), that anything someone tells you verbally is not binding. Everything agreed to in 1997 was written in the contract that was provided to everyone who voted as it is every contract. So apparently all those who felt they were lied to didn't read their contract. I just had someone yesterday come up to me very indignantly stating that "they just heard that UPS bought out the Teamster pension fund and sold us out". Really? You mean the Central States that we all voted to allow to change in 2008? He was from Texas. Go figure.

It's no coincidence that as Union membership has declined, so has the standard of pay and benefits for workers as a whole. Companies feel no pressure to offer pensions, paid healthcare, job security, favorable work rules, much less competitive wages without Union-shop competition. To believe otherwise is just drinking the kool-aid of promised prosperity that is really indentured servitude with nights and weekends off.


Your last two sentences are the quintessential mantra of the teamsters.
Fact;
In the right to work State of Texas, one can make double,to triple, what a union job pays.
BLS statistics do not prove your "fact". I can make 10-20 times what my Union job pays if I become a lawyer. What does that prove? BLS statistics still show Union median wages at $917/week vs. $717 for non-union. No matter what they are trying to sell you, the writing on the wall says Right To Work FOR LESS is the reality.
Caveat;
One must learn a skill and apply it.
There is no free lunch, in a working persons life.
There is only the free choice on how one is going to live their life.

 

[hypocrisy]

The Contract provides a built-in discouragement to anyone who would grieve a Supervisor working two minutes. Besides all the trouble fileing a grievance involves, if the grievant makes $8.50 per hour, say, his grievance award, if successful, would be 28 cents. (Admittedly, higher paid employees would get bigger "payoffs.")

On the other hand, if an employee punches in a minute late, he is automatically not paid for that minute, and his lateness is automatically recorded as such, even if no one saw him, or no one chooses to punish him.

In many areas, when supervisors work, they not only deprive an employee of potential pay, they also deprive the pension and H&W funds of required contributions. In New England, for example, UPS contributes $7.86 per hour to the Pension Plan, and $8.56 per hour to the Health and Welfare Plan when bargaining unit members work.

That is a very good point and I had not really thought about it from that perspective. Not only are they stealing from us today, they are looting from us tomorrow.

I actually filed a supervisors working grievance for 5 minutes which was something like $6 at the time. The division manager sent me the check via Saturday Air. I saved the envelope and stub and still chuckle every time I see it.

 

[hypocrisy]

RTW'ers are FREELOADERS:

They want the high wages we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They like the progression we negotiated with guaranteed raises, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the job protections we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the generous health care benefits we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the free uniforms we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the representation of a Shop Steward, yet they don't want to pay.

They want a copy of the Contract we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay. (guess they go to Barnes & Noble and demand free books too)

They love the seniority rights we negotiated and demand we protect it, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the free CDL training we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the free annual DOT physical we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the generous paid vacations we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the generous paid holidays we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the generous paid sick days we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the life insurance we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the LTD & STD coverage we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the 401k plan we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the paid jury duty we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They want the tuition reimbursement we negotiated, yet they don't want to pay.

They'll happily cash their pension check when they retire early, yet they don't want to pay.

-------------
If any of the above don't apply to YOU and YOUR Union supplement, look around and see how active your membership is.
As a member, you can change it.
Does your local provide free legal services with membership? Mine does.
Death benefits? Mine does.
Both are more than worth the annual dues I pay.

 

[AssistantSanta]

Wow, that was all you had for me. That's a pretty strong comeback for you.

We also teach children to walk, talk, use silverware and their manners at the table. I still want to see you teach a child how to do this and try and intimidate them like you say you do to your part timers. Just make sure you don't assist them when they have that 70 lb. pottery barn box, as that would be grounds for a grievance, ya know.

No argument that its a physically demanding job, though, I wouldn't consider it a challenging job.
If it was a difficult job, there is very little need for seniority protection as it needs someone capable of doing the task to bump you. If you fear that a high school student can bump you off without union, it means that a few months will get them trained enough to be proficient at the task.

For you, I believe it is the artificial protection of Union seniority protecting you from having someone replace you based on merit. (accuracy, speed and pay).

 

[iowa boy]

No argument that its a physically demanding job, though, I wouldn't consider it a challenging job.
If it was a difficult job, there is very little need for seniority protection as it needs someone capable of doing the task to bump you. If you fear that a high school student can bump you off without union, it means that a few months will get them trained enough to be proficient at the task.

For you, I believe it is the artificial protection of Union seniority protecting you from having someone replace you based on merit. (accuracy, speed and pay).

Just an FYI, if I was concerned about a high school student bumping me off my job, then maybe I shouldn't work here. But, said student would have to come to work everyday and want to work when here. Most of this generation of high school kids don't know the meaning of work, let alone working at a physically demanding job. God forbid they would have to give up their cell phones and get off Facebook for more than 15 minutes to do some actual work.

Until you sit in the drivers seat of that truck you rode around in thru peak and try and deal with everything us drivers have to deal with on a daily basis, including know it all helpers, you cant possibly begin to understand how challenging this job is, both physically and mentally.

Until you do what everyone here has done, be it working the preload, local sort, or the night shift. To driving for 12 hours a day, 5 days a week and dealing with all the stresses that your management team puts on you, don't lecture me or anyone else here about how this is not a challenging job.


Any you wonder why you were only a helper and don't have a job at UPS now after peak? UPS has enough know it alls, they don't need another.

 

[AssistantSanta]

blah blah blah, I'm a bigot

Obesity is prominent in all ages. More so as they get older. Your claim high schoolers are just lazy is a baseless bigot.

Until you sit in the drivers seat of that truck you rode around in thru peak and try and deal with everything us drivers have to deal with on a daily basis, including know it all helpers, you cant possibly begin to understand how challenging this job is, both physically and mentally.

Again, if it was such a challenging job where only the fittest can survive, there is no reason to worry about getting "bumped" by "rookie" driver. You can only get bumped when replacement comes in who will comparable or better production at comparable or lower cost. You don't need arbitrary Union seniority protection if your long experience is giving you measurable advantage that is not replaceable.

Any you wonder why you were only a helper and don't have a job at UPS now after peak? UPS has enough know it alls, they don't need another.

There's no opening yet at my center.

 

[iowa boy]

Obesity is prominent in all ages. More so as they get older. Your claim high schoolers are just lazy is a baseless bigot.

Where in my post did I say anything about obesity? Nice ploy changing my choice of words I used though.
I'm a bigot because I voiced my opinion about todays teenagers being lazy? How is that any different than you voicing your opinion about UPS "forcing" you to join the union when you chose not to read what was placed in front of you? To me, that would make you a baseless bigot also.


Again, if it was such a challenging job where only the fittest can survive, there is no reason to worry about getting "bumped" by "rookie" driver. You can only get bumped when replacement comes in who will comparable or better production at comparable or lower cost. You don't need arbitrary Union seniority protection if your long experience is giving you measurable advantage that is not replaceable.

Yet another instance of changing my choice of words to suit your agenda. I do like your style though, but it makes you look like more of a fool. Nowhere in my earlier reply did I say anthing about getting "bumped" by another driver. Besides, with seniority in the union, I don't have to worry about being bumped by a rookie driver even if they can perform better than I can. I am secure enough with my job at UPS that I dont necessarily need union protection, but I choose to pay for that protection after reading on here and seeing in person the way people are treated by this company's representatives.

There's no opening yet at my center.

When you want to have a conversation with me and not 'massage' my quotes to play into your agenda you have, contact me. Until then, I am done with you.

 

[UPSSOCKS]

Until you sit in the drivers seat of that truck you rode around in thru peak and try and deal with everything us drivers have to deal with on a daily basis, including know it all helpers, you cant possibly begin to understand how challenging this job is, both physically and mentally.

Until you do what everyone here has done, be it working the preload, local sort, or the night shift. To driving for 12 hours a day, 5 days a week and dealing with all the stresses that your management team puts on you, don't lecture me or anyone else here about how this is not a challenging job.


Any you wonder why you were only a helper and don't have a job at UPS now after peak? UPS has enough know it alls, they don't need another.

Not lecturing just explaining that it isn't a challenging job. We train children to do it. I still don't understand what is so mentally challenging for you. We tell you everything to do. Do you have trouble understanding instructions?

 

[hypocrisy]

Not lecturing just explaining that it isn't a challenging job. We train children to do it. I still don't understand what is so mentally challenging for you. We tell you everything to do. Do you have trouble understanding instructions?

I'm sure you intended to insinuate that Management is wise and educated and that only the cream of the business world could perform your function, but really you just called yourself a babysitter. Be sure to clean the dishes when you put the kids down for a nap and I'll give you a big tip on the drive home.

 

[hellfire]

Not lecturing just explaining that it isn't a challenging job. We train children to do it. I still don't understand what is so mentally challenging for you. We tell you everything to do. Do you have trouble understanding instructions?

youre a funny one,, keep pretending, you get belittled daily because you cant motivate the negative elements, thats even if your in operations, if so than you know your smoke and mirrors, your position is pretty much meaningless as true management as the corporate law team's gotta fill those ranks with corrective minorities to even the lawsuit threat,,

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

youre a funny one,, keep pretending, you get belittled daily because you cant motivate the negative elements, thats even if your in operations, if so than you know your smoke and mirrors, your position is pretty much meaningless as true management as the corporate law team's gotta fill those ranks with corrective minorities to even the lawsuit threat,,

Corrective minorities? Care to expand on this?

 

[hellfire]

Corrective minorities? Care to expand on this?

slots must be filled to avoid future discrimination lawsuits, correct future lawsuit possibilities, I will use the female example, in a building of about 500 current employees (drivers , loaders, unloaders) we have ONE FEMALE working hourly,, yet,, we have FIVE in operations,, ....................................

 

[Bubblehead]

slots must be filled to avoid future discrimination lawsuits, correct future lawsuit possibilities, I will use the female example, in a building of about 500 current employees (drivers , loaders, unloaders) we have ONE FEMALE working hourly,, yet,, we have FIVE in operations,, ....................................

Are they worth double points if they are lesbian?

 

[hellfire]

Are they worth double points if they are lesbian?

wow,, i didnt want to go there,,but...yeah, seems to be everywhere