The Truth About Right to Work (for less) in Indiana

[trickpony1]

The concept of "corrective minorities", as alluded to by another poster, is correct.
I know of a case where the company falsified an indivduals name to meet a quota.
To protect the innocent the names have been changed........
I knew a very Caucasion male whose last name was Byrd.
He told me he was approached by two management people one day. The following conversation occured:
Management: "You spell your name B I R D, don't you?
Byrd: "No".
Management: "Yes, you do."
Byrd: "No, I don't."
Management: "Yes, you do."
Byrd: "okay.....I do".

Byrd told me later........"they needed a Native American".

So much for honesty and integrity.........

 

[AssistantSanta]

I'm sure you intended to insinuate that Management is wise and educated and that only the cream of the business world could perform your function, but really you just called yourself a babysitter. Be sure to clean the dishes when you put the kids down for a nap and I'll give you a big tip on the drive home.

You sure he's not going to get grieved by Brothers and Sisters in the Hospitality Industry?

 

[hypocrisy]

You sure he's not going to get grieved by Brothers and Sisters in the Hospitality Industry?

Look, I hate to be the one to break this to you but it looks like not only is your UPS career finished but your just not cut out to be a Comedian either. Stick to Walmart or Burger King, maybe one day you'll own a franchise.

 

[Socrates]

Even in the best years of Union membership (the peak about 35% in the 50's), most companies remain non-union. It's up to every workplace to decide if they want Union representation, and highly arrogant of anyone who walks in later to say they should be able to 'opt out'.

Union shops never prevented anyone from earning a living, just required them to play by the same rules everyone else does in that particular workplace. It's your choice to apply to work there and you are free to choose non-union workplaces.

RTW is absolutely a major reason declines have occurred and continue. Money that could be used to organize members and gain workplace strength is instead sapped by freeloading workers. As a steward for many, many years I can tell you that the non-union members are the first to whine about the contract they have no vote on and put no money into enforcing is being violated.

It's no coincidence that as Union membership has declined, so has the standard of pay and benefits for workers as a whole. Companies feel no pressure to offer pensions, paid healthcare, job security, favorable work rules, much less competitive wages without Union-shop competition. To believe otherwise is just drinking the kool-aid of promised prosperity that is really indentured servitude with nights and weekends off.

This. I lean right on most issues, but I'm (oddly) against RTW. You know what you're signing up for. It's not like whether such-and-such company is Union or not is some kind of big secret, and you only find out after the fact. Do your homework.

As for companies you start working for, and THEN they go Union.....little harder to say, but it's kind of on you at that point to put up or shut up. If your coworkers out vote you, then pay dues or kick rocks.

 

[hypocrisy]

This. I lean right on most issues, but I'm (oddly) against RTW. You know what you're signing up for. It's not like whether such-and-such company is Union or not is some kind of big secret, and you only find out after the fact. Do your homework.

As for companies you start working for, and THEN they go Union.....little harder to say, but it's kind of on you at that point to put up or shut up. If your coworkers out vote you, then pay dues or kick rocks.

Exactly, and I understand about the leaning right issue. For example, I actually had high hopes about the Tea Party as far as cutting spending & taxes until it became all about gutting public worker Unions. I have liberal friends who aren't talking to me because they think I'm too conservative and conservative friends who think I'm a socialist.

It's hard to understand what's so evil about using collective bargaining power to get a better deal for workers than they could on their own. Refer to the UPS Partners thread about pay scales and you'll see the reality of what non-bargaining unit workers face.
Just for fun check out this site: Battlefield315

 

[ftballer67]

With RTW picking up in traditional closed shop Midwestern states like Indiana, possibly Michigan who knows who else?.......I think the Teamsters are going to have to face reality that if they don't negotiate a decent deal for part timers next time around they will see a mass exodus of their dues money from the part time ranks...ie the majority of their dues money.

I've been part time for 8 years and have talked with several co-workers, 70-80 percent said they would stop paying dues immediately if given the chance, feel the union has given them an unfair shake for years.

Now before everyone starts with the "part timers don't participate that's why they get screwed" argument, I understand and that makes sense, but nonetheless if they don't begin to see value for their dues money relative to the value their full time brethren receive for their dues money the Teamsters are going to suffer some serious declines in dues when/if these states go to RTW.

 

[brownmonster]

With RTW picking up in traditional closed shop Midwestern states like Indiana, possibly Michigan who knows who else?.......I think the Teamsters are going to have to face reality that if they don't negotiate a decent deal for part timers next time around they will see a mass exodus of their dues money from the part time ranks...ie the majority of their dues money.

I've been part time for 8 years and have talked with several co-workers, 70-80 percent said they would stop paying dues immediately if given the chance, feel the union has given them an unfair shake for years.

Now before everyone starts with the "part timers don't participate that's why they get screwed" argument, I understand and that makes sense, but nonetheless if they don't begin to see value for their dues money relative to the value their full time brethren receive for their dues money the Teamsters are going to suffer some serious declines in dues when/if these states go to RTW.

Full family medical and a pension for 2 1/2 hours pay a month? Offer that to the average Joe and he'd be all over it.

 

[brown_trousers]

Full family medical and a pension for 2 1/2 hours pay a month? Offer that to the average Joe and he'd be all over it.

Full family medical and a pension isn't going to help much, if you only make enough money to live out of a cardboard box.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Full family medical and a pension isn't going to help much, if you only make enough money to live out of a cardboard box.

True but you would have one of the nicer boxes.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Hold the unions feet to the fire and we will see better representation and contracts. "closed shop" accomplishes nothing but allows the union to take dues from everyone whether the representation is adequate, not. Blame the progressive movement.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Obesity is prominent in all ages. More so as they get older. Your claim high schoolers are just lazy is a baseless bigot.

Actually, the workforce has changed quite a bit in the past 30 years, if not 60 or 100 years. Kids today do not have the same work ethic as generations past, that is fact. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but just look at the industries and job markets , economies...the world has changed and so has the workforce and physical labor is simply not as desirable as it was in the heyday of unionism. Besides, most of those jobs have been offshored.

 

[AssistantSanta]

Full family medical and a pension for 2 1/2 hours pay a month? Offer that to the average Joe and he'd be all over it.

How do they maintain hub workers at Canada when aforementioned is by default given to every citizen?

 

[ftballer67]

Hold the unions feet to the fire and we will see better representation and contracts. "closed shop" accomplishes nothing but allows the union to take dues from everyone whether the representation is adequate, not. Blame the progressive movement.

This is exactly my point. With closed shop states the Teamsters have zero incentive to put a decent deal on the table for part timers because they know the dues money will flow in no matter what.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Even in the best years of Union membership (the peak about 35% in the 50's), most companies remain non-union. It's up to every workplace to decide if they want Union representation, and highly arrogant of anyone who walks in later to say they should be able to 'opt out'.

Its highly arrogant to think that unionization should be the standard for everyone just because they work in a union shop

Union shops never prevented anyone from earning a living, just required them to play by the same rules everyone else does in that particular workplace. It's your choice to apply to work there and you are free to choose non-union workplaces.

Sometimes they do prevent them from earning a living. When they keep asking for more, and more, and more to the point where the company that employs the people they represent has to close or move over seas because they can't afford to compete anymore. The choice of whether or not someone wants to work in a nonunion workplace is a personal one and NOT based on whether they feel obligated to join a union.

RTW is absolutely a major reason declines have occurred and continue. Money that could be used to organize members and gain workplace strength is instead sapped by freeloading workers. As a steward for many, many years I can tell you that the non-union members are the first to whine about the contract they have no vote on and put no money into enforcing is being violated.

Declines occur because the majority of Americans don't want or feel the need for unions. Not because of RTW laws. There are a small handful of jobs now that need unions nowadays. If that weren't true than the membership would not be declining in RTW states. Sure....there would still be free loaders but membership would be much, much higher. The fact is that the unions kind of killed themselves. In the early years they fought and were able to get labor laws that are still on the books today. They paved the way for things that are common practice today in any workplace. In most environments they've basically outlived their usefulness and aren't needed. Now they are just political action committees that tend to ask for too much from employers and give too much to political campaigns.

It's no coincidence that as Union membership has declined, so has the standard of pay and benefits for workers as a whole. Companies feel no pressure to offer pensions, paid healthcare, job security, favorable work rules, much less competitive wages without Union-shop competition. To believe otherwise is just drinking the kool-aid of promised prosperity that is really indentured servitude with nights and weekends off.

If unions were truly needed on the scale that some would seem to think then membership wouldn't be declining. The standard of pay and benefits should be determined by the free market system. Not unions. Competition and service (service is the only reason we are preferred over FedEx) play a part there as well. Americanns aren't indentured servants simply for not wanting union representation. If so, I guess that the vast majority of Americans are Koop-aid drinking servants. That seems kind of odd though. To be indentured servants, yet, have the highest standard of living of any country in the world whether they are union or not. Hmmmm......

 

[hypocrisy]

Its highly arrogant to think that unionization should be the standard for everyone just because they work in a union shop.
Hardly. I suppose you feel it's arrogant to assume that Democracy should be the standard in America? I'm sure the communists and socialists would agree with you.



Sometimes they do prevent them from earning a living. When they keep asking for more, and more, and more to the point where the company that employs the people they represent has to close or move over seas because they can't afford to compete anymore. The choice of whether or not someone wants to work in a nonunion workplace is a personal one and NOT based on whether they feel obligated to join a union.
Now I'm confused. Are the Unions at fault because they ask for too much? Yet the Teamsters are at fault because they didn't ask for enough? You fail to understand that the members put forth the proposals for the negotiating team to ask for. If the members want to price themselves out of a job, then they can live with that. The Union will advise against this of course, but ultimately they will ask for what the members want and the members can decide if they want to strike when their proposals are rejected.
Your last sentence makes my point. If you want to work in a non-union workplace, then by all means choose a non-union workplace to work in. If the workplace wants to go union, vote 'no'.


Declines occur because the majority of Americans don't want or feel the need for unions. Not because of RTW laws. There are a small handful of jobs now that need unions nowadays. If that weren't true than the membership would not be declining in RTW states. Sure....there would still be free loaders but membership would be much, much higher. The fact is that the unions kind of killed themselves. In the early years they fought and were able to get labor laws that are still on the books today. They paved the way for things that are common practice today in any workplace. In most environments they've basically outlived their usefulness and aren't needed. Now they are just political action committees that tend to ask for too much from employers and give too much to political campaigns.
Empirical evidence proves you wrong. RTW states show a disproportionate decline in Union membership vs. non-RTW states. As to your second point, yes I will agree somewhat that many of labor laws fought for have not helped membership but have benefited workers as a whole. However, as seen on the current fight for the NLRB, it's easy to gut these agencies for political gain and render them impotent. All too often common practice in the workplace is to ignore these laws, leading to the need for Unions again. Pardon me if I don't have your faith in the companies of today and tomorrow to respect workers rights, safety, freedom from discrimination, hostile work environments and outright stealing from them.
And again, are we asking too much or too little? Pick one. Oh, and you can thank Citizens United, your now fully recognized Corporate Citizen for the undue influence in political campaigns. Sad fact is even with all our dues money it's like spitting on a campfire compared to the corporate money out there. Of course, if you listen to Right Wing Radio, and I do, it's all about Union influence on elections and Supreme Court case was all about Unions.


If unions were truly needed on the scale that some would seem to think then membership wouldn't be declining. The standard of pay and benefits should be determined by the free market system. Not unions. Competition and service (service is the only reason we are preferred over FedEx) play a part there as well. Americanns aren't indentured servants simply for not wanting union representation. If so, I guess that the vast majority of Americans are Koop-aid drinking servants. That seems kind of odd though. To be indentured servants, yet, have the highest standard of living of any country in the world whether they are union or not. Hmmmm......

Methinks you don't read enough. Standards of pay and benefits have not risen because Corporations do not play fair and act as economic models say they should. Every time wages should rise there is some explanation why Business does not feel pressure to do so. What is missing is the power of collective bargaining to force Corporations to recognize the worker as entity deserving of respect.

If what you say were true, then the relentless attack on Unions over the past 40 years (which has been very successful as far as declining membership) would have resulted in substantially higher pay for workers, near universal paid health care from employers, near universal real pensions or 401k's that would truly pay for your declining years, and the highest, most exemplary safety and workplace respect record on the planet. Guess what, it hasn't happened.

Even as I read about how productive American workers are compared to the rest of the world, none of this has happened. Instead, workers have suffered with stagnant wages held down by an artificial 'scale' (not your true market forces) they roll over and accept; suffered with inadequate 401k plans, if any pension at all, that pretty much guarantee most workers will be on some form of government assistance in their declining years; suffer with completely inadequate health care coverage at atrociously high rates even though Corporations have it within their power to band together and bargain for those rates collectively (and Fedex is a great example as they don't even provide any health care coverage to part time employees and the friend/T coverage is woefully lacking and expensive. I believe healthcare should be employer provided as they have an inherent interest in your continuing good health.); and suffer even more as the headlines scream every few months about hostile work environments where women are subject to sexual harassment, glass ceilings, systemic discrimination against non-white ethnicities, and suffer from rampant employment of illegal aliens at less than minimum wage.

Sorry but I deal in reality, and I find your argument lacking.

 

[hypocrisy]

I might add that your signature:

"A system of government that steals from it's most productive citizens to give to it's most unproductive can always count on the unproductive's vote."

doesn't really explain Bush Sr., Bush Jr., or Reagan does it? Methinks Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry, and Gore are wondering where the hell the unproductive's vote went. Perhaps more free Kool-aid?

 

[hypocrisy]

Actually, the workforce has changed quite a bit in the past 30 years, if not 60 or 100 years. Kids today do not have the same work ethic as generations past, that is fact. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but just look at the industries and job markets , economies...the world has changed and so has the workforce and physical labor is simply not as desirable as it was in the heyday of unionism. Besides, most of those jobs have been offshored.

Witness the not-quite-senior preloader complaining about his low starting wage in another thread. Reminds me when I was in high-school busting my butt for a tire shop for 50 cents above minimum wage. This new hire went in to the boss on his second day and demanded a raise. The showed him the door.

Part of it is generational, part of it is Corporations reaping what they sowed. Corporations wanted to remove seniority, end employer provided health care, kill your pension by getting you to buy into a 401k plan, and sell you a bill of goods that you are replaceable and expendable. So people today do not feel any loyalty to their employer and expect to have many jobs until they retire (if they retire). So you have lazy workers always looking for the next easy street instead of remaining loyal to an employer that rewards their loyalty after 30-40 years of work. Was this good for America?

As for off-shoring of jobs, sure you have the Global Marketplace and all that and sometimes it may be necessary to have some parts made off-shore so companies can compete. But I can swallow that easier if final assembly is done in the U.S. or if the companies maintain a high U.S. presence. The trade off probably isn't worth it. Try to find a mechanic that uses cheap chinese tools in his tool box. Sure, they might be work a few times, but 'good enough' isn't really when his livelihood depends on reliable tools to get that job done fast enough so he can make money.

Sometimes I wonder if we had to re-fight WWII today, how companies today would react to having their entire operation retooled and re-purposed to supply a war machine out of a sense of duty instead of profit. I pray we never have to find out the answer to that question.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Methinks you don't read enough. Standards of pay and benefits have not risen because Corporations do not play fair and act as economic models say they should. Every time wages should rise there is some explanation why Business does not feel pressure to do so. What is missing is the power of collective bargaining to force Corporations to recognize the worker as entity deserving of respect.

If what you say were true, then the relentless attack on Unions over the past 40 years (which has been very successful as far as declining membership) would have resulted in substantially higher pay for workers, near universal paid health care from employers, near universal real pensions or 401k's that would truly pay for your declining years, and the highest, most exemplary safety and workplace respect record on the planet. Guess what, it hasn't happened.

Even as I read about how productive American workers are compared to the rest of the world, none of this has happened. Instead, workers have suffered with stagnant wages held down by an artificial 'scale' (not your true market forces) they roll over and accept; suffered with inadequate 401k plans, if any pension at all, that pretty much guarantee most workers will be on some form of government assistance in their declining years; suffer with completely inadequate health care coverage at atrociously high rates even though Corporations have it within their power to band together and bargain for those rates collectively (and Fedex is a great example as they don't even provide any health care coverage to part time employees and the friend/T coverage is woefully lacking and expensive. I believe healthcare should be employer provided as they have an inherent interest in your continuing good health.); and suffer even more as the headlines scream every few months about hostile work environments where women are subject to sexual harassment, glass ceilings, systemic discrimination against non-white ethnicities, and suffer from rampant employment of illegal aliens at less than minimum wage.

Sorry but I deal in reality, and I find your argument lacking.

The writing is on the wall. Unions aren't needed on the scale that someone such as yourself would lead others to believe. If not union membership wouldn't have declined so drastically over the decades. Right to Work is a good thing. It allows everyone the right to chose instead of having unionization force fed to us by people like yourself. No one has to chose to work elsewhere if the place they want to apply for is a union shop. To believe so is just another example of the arrogance associated with our beliefs. Unions are good where needed (UPS and a select few others) and when they don't artificially inflate wages (look at the auto industry) and benefits. Unfortunately, they aren't needed in many workplaces these days. I mean you should face the facts here man......if I weren't correct then this topic wouldn't even be brought up the way it is. If i werent correct then unions would dominate the workplace. If I werent correct then union membership wouldnt be declining in non RTW states as well. That right there should have been a wake up call by itself. But when someone is in a brain washed socialist induced coma I guess not even the brightest light of truth can snap them out of it.

 

[hypocrisy]

The writing is on the wall. Unions aren't needed on the scale that someone such as yourself would lead others to believe. If not union membership wouldn't have declined so drastically over the decades. Right to Work is a good thing. It allows everyone the right to chose instead of having unionization force fed to us by people like yourself. No one has to chose to work elsewhere if the place they want to apply for is a union shop. To believe so is just another example of the arrogance associated with our beliefs. Unions are good where needed (UPS and a select few others) and when they don't artificially inflate wages (look at the auto industry) and benefits. Unfortunately, they aren't needed in many workplaces these days. I mean you should face the facts here man......if I weren't correct then this topic wouldn't even be brought up the way it is. If i werent correct then unions would dominate the workplace. If I werent correct then union membership wouldnt be declining in non RTW states as well. That right there should have been a wake up call by itself. But when someone is in a brain washed socialist induced coma I guess not even the brightest light of truth can snap them out of it.

I like that you are facing facts, then assume that just because there is an opposing view yours is correct. One fact you can always count on is that no matter what the subject, someone will raise a contrarian view. Then you go on to assume that laws can in no way affect Union membership, ignoring the fact that Government passes laws every day that influence public behavior. I think it was Hillary that said they would use the law to 'nudge' people into choosing the preferred course of action. It's been going on for a long time before Hillary came out and said it.

The Teamsters aren't Socialists. Never have been, never will be.

It's OK, I understand. I used to have many of the same feelings you did. All I knew about Unions was what they railed about on Talk Radio and the mobbed up movie versions. The truth was quite a bit different. Sure, the Teamsters support Democrats today (more than they should IMO), but in the past they were quite Republican. Just like the farmer who needs his fields plowed must treat his horses well, the horses can't kick the farmer when he puts on the yoke or it's off to the glue factory (and the Teamsters just make sure that farmer is generous with the apples). It's not conspiring socialist talk in the Union halls, it's realism about what is going to fly and what won't. Democrats may pander to Union's but most turn around and stab us in the back, such as with the insane environmental regulations that strangle jobs, good Union jobs.

Perhaps it's time, since Big Business opened the door, for us to step up our PAC money. Perhaps we can have as much or more influence over politicians as business does. Politicians, being what they are, will 'nuance' their positions as necessary to ensure their continued employment. If Union members would participate we could easily influence where our money goes. I'd be more than welcoming to some Republicans that, while not kowtowing to labor, would at least recognize our strength and show us some respect. Hell, maybe then I could make more money to buy even more guns and rest assured I could keep them.

 

[brown_trousers]

The writing is on the wall. Unions aren't needed on the scale that someone such as yourself would lead others to believe. If not union membership wouldn't have declined so drastically over the decades. Right to Work is a good thing. It allows everyone the right to chose instead of having unionization force fed to us by people like yourself.

Right-to-work would be a great thing if they didn't require the union to still represent someone who doesn't join. They should amend that law so that a person has a right to choose not to be union (but with no representation from the union, and they would negotiate their own wages and benefits). That's the way the law should have been written in the first place.

It doesn't matter if the person is an idiot for not joining, this is America, we should have the freedom to be idiots if we choose to be!