Try this...maybe

[705red]

The driver in question may have actually been honest in clocking in. At my center, we use the diad as a timecard, we dont punch in with cards or on paper. Now... considering that he was using his diad to prerecord stops before his shift. It has to be assumed that he logged in to his diad before he pre-recorded his stops. At my center I dont think he could be found dishonest.

He might have punched into the diad and if hes is scanning and prerecording he did punch into the diad. However unless you change your start time in the board you will not get paid for anything before the start time in the board. Unless you go to other work and document sort and load etc, which should be paid at overtime because it is before your scheduled start time for the week.

Very good observation... I did not even take that into consideration. I wonder how many drivers might be guilty of this one as it carries a heavy penalty to both the driver and the company if caught. If I was witnessing this type of behavior and really wanted to put a stop to it, I would probably report this to DOT or warn management that I will report if it doesn't stop.

Also remember that you must be off the clock for 10 hours before returning back to work. I would suggest that you file a grievance rather then notifying management that you would call. This way you have documented proof that you are a whistle blower against UPS for violating Federal law. Because when you get fired you will get your job back way easier with this documented proof then a wild accusation that has no proof. IMO

 

[Mike23]

It takes one to know one.

I know you are but what am I?

 

[bubsdad]

I took a brief skim of the NMA, but didn't find it. I'm sure there is something to the effect of working off the clock. I wouldn't dispute that. But the way its worded can make all the difference. For example...... You have the right to remain silent if you are arrested, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to use that right. We always have the option to waive a specific right if we should so please. I guess I'm just curious to how the contract language is worded. I just got out of Law class so this junk is fresh on my mind, please take no offense to my post, I'm just curious, thats all

I would suggest you actually take the time to read the contract. Why would you just "skim" through something that is this important? And in "skimming" through, how would you feel educated enough on it to argue points that clearly you have no knowledge of. Everyone that is covered by the contract should read it. You are doing yourself a huge disservice if you don't.

 

[dannyboy]

JonFrum

I think it might be an interesting exercise if someone filed with the IRS on the issue.

Remember how they took down Capone? It was with not filing with the IRS, hiding money.

UPS is the recipient of millions of dollars worth of free labor each year, yet they dont recognize that via the IRS.

I wonder if the guys working off the clock would continue to do so if they had to pay the taxes (all of them) on the time spent for free. Not to mention the union benefits mentioned earlier.

When it gets to the point that it costs UPS it will stop.

BTW, no answer to

What give you or any other person the right to work for free at a company that has employees laid off, and others waiting to get promoted?

d

 

[atatbl]

I know you are but what am I?

LOL, my thoughts exactly. Normally, I would assume that was a joke if it was coming from the right poster. But that guy..... I am sure he meant that and thought he would cause some awe-inspiring moment in my life with his nonsensical, immature and most importantly, cognitively underdeveloped thought.

 

[atatbl]

Let me answer your question with a question.

What give you or any other person the right to work for free at a company that has employees laid off, and others waiting to get promoted?

d

Let me redirect your question to people that can answer it. Anyone that has volunteered at a United Way cause in the last two months has done exactly that. The only difference is that United Way is non-profit... simply semantics as far as the volunteer has acknowledged. My answer? Because I felt it was the right thing to do at the moment. And that is really all that matters at the moment.

If you would be so kind; please answer a query of mine. What gives you the "right" to think people need a "right" to go against what you or anyone else believes in?

I will make it simpler at the risk of coming off rude. Why would anyone need to justify any action to you or any other person that holds no authority over them?

And if your argument is "because it is written in stone (contract)" than don't bother. There are a myriad of laws that no one follows and no cares about. There are a lot that no one cares about until it becomes an issue (i.e. speeding). Arguments about law and contract outside of their place to be settled are worthless. Any form of evolution usually requires a breakdown of previously limiting beliefs.

 

[dannyboy]

There are a myriad of laws that no one follows and no cares about. There are a lot that no one cares about until it becomes an issue (i.e. speeding).

The problem with your thought process is that in your mind, you are not breaking the law until someone catches you and enforces that law.

Laws or rules are designed for the smooth and proper flow of interactions between people, companies etc. That is why in most cases, there are a set pf punishments for the violation of those laws.

Another fine example is

Because I felt it was the right thing to do at the moment

That thought process is exactly what the guy that shot the doctor in church said. So in your belief process, what he did was not wrong, because he felt it was the right thing to do at the moment?

I hardly think so.

Why would anyone need to justify any action to you or any other person that holds no authority over them?

Who said you needed to justify anything, it is obvious that you intend to do what ever the heck you want, regardless of the legality of the situation.

As for the United way volunteering, thank you for your selflessness. I am sure you made a big difference in the lives of some one you helped. But that is where your logic stops. There is a huge difference in volunteering at a charity, and giving free labor at work.

But then I would not expect for you to see that.

d

 

[atatbl]

The problem with your thought process is that in your mind, you are not breaking the law until someone catches you and enforces that law.

Laws or rules are designed for the smooth and proper flow of interactions between people, companies etc. That is why in most cases, there are a set pf punishments for the violation of those laws.

Another fine example is That thought process is exactly what the guy that shot the doctor in church said. So in your belief process, what he did was not wrong, because he felt it was the right thing to do at the moment?

I hardly think so.

Who said you needed to justify anything, it is obvious that you intend to do what ever the heck you want, regardless of the legality of the situation.

As for the United way volunteering, thank you for your selflessness. I am sure you made a big difference in the lives of some one you helped. But that is where your logic stops. There is a huge difference in volunteering at a charity, and giving free labor at work.

But then I would not expect for you to see that.

d

LOL. I think I see your problem here Danny. When someone poses a hypothetical, but does not state as much, you seem to follow that logic personally.

I apologize for misleading you. The quotes you took above (minus the volunteering) are not my mindset. So when you say "Your mindset is all that's wrong in this world (or some lesser version that is just as meaningless)" you are insulting no one. I am not sure if everyone in the world has that mindset or no one does. It's not possible for me to know right now. It really doesn't matter either. It's a discussion and revolves around implied questions. Don't take it personally or believe anyone necessarily feels that way.

I dare say, there is nothing in this universe that you can grasp a decent level of comprehension on that I cannot. The fact that you would tell strangers they cannot see flaws, positive attributes, or non consequential elements of a thought or action says volumes about you as a person. I try and stay away from getting personal, but you have done it many times before. It is what it is.

Since you seem to be very mesmerized by the Tiller case, I will just say this. The defense team in that case does not need to accept their clients line of reasoning to defend him. They do not need to believe in homicide to argue for it. The reason why? Well........... I hope you can figure that out for yourself....... it's what separates us from other animals. I suppose next you will argue that humans are not animals?

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I'm just trying to figure out why there is even an argument about this at all?? It's quite simple.....we aren't supposed to work off the clock. Whats so hard to understand about that? If anyone thinks that its ok if management looks the other way then maybe it should be ok if the union looks the other way when management violates the contract. Like a shortage on your paycheck maybe? Oh wait....when you work off the clock you are already guaranteed to have a paycut shortage!

 

[atatbl]

I'm just trying to figure out why there is even an argument about this at all?? It's quite simple.....we aren't supposed to work off the clock. Whats so hard to understand about that? If anyone thinks that its ok if management looks the other way then maybe it should be ok if the union looks the other way when management violates the contract. Like a shortage on your paycheck maybe? Oh wait....when you work off the clock you are already guaranteed to have a paycut shortage!

Within reason, no violation of any contract between two parties is "OK". In fact, theory would dictate that it wouldn't even be OK unless and exception was spelled out. That's all fine and dandy.

Then it gets applied, through actions, in real life. I would hope that we all understand that we don't live in a perfect world. Especially today; the world is "changing" quicker than it used to. Most argue that it's changing quicker than we can evolve to meet in a healthy manner. Not only physically, but more importantly society as a whole. The right thing to do is not always clear anymore (and I am not necessarily talking about working off the clock here).

Something as simple as whether or not to work off the clock affects more than just that action. In this case, people do it for work/life quality reasons. That's the only real point I have heard people argue vehemently on here. It's hard to put a value on time with your family or whatever it is you do outside work. That is where the motive becomes exactly what the person feels they have to do to improve (or maintain) their quality of life. Let's not forget, the consequences for working off the clock (as witnessed in this thread) clearly do not outweigh the positives of getting off work early to these individuals. You can judge them all you want, I'd rather try and understand exactly how big their gain is.

 

[UPS Lifer]

I'm just trying to figure out why there is even an argument about this at all?? It's quite simple.....we aren't supposed to work off the clock. Whats so hard to understand about that? If anyone thinks that its ok if management looks the other way then maybe it should be ok if the union looks the other way when management violates the contract. Like a shortage on your paycheck maybe? Oh wait....when you work off the clock you are already guaranteed to have a paycut shortage!

I know of areas (centers) that follow the contract so closely, the drivers do not talk to a management person until they are on the clock. To me, that is taking it to the ridiculous stage.

However, that being said nobody should work off the clock. Nobody should look the other way.

BUT - Those of you who think that you will add drivers once the problem is fixed are sadly mistaken.

Let's say that 20 drivers (in one center) start taking a 1/2 hour lunch that they were giving away prior. Well some of you think that creates another driver because 10 hours of work now has to be accounted for. THINK AGAIN! - All that is going to happen is the drivers are going to work longer hours. The center paid day will go up and the SPORH will probably go down and the drivers will get 1/2 hour more in overtime. BUT no additional job will be created because of the 10 extra hours.

For the Teamsters who follow the contract - your biggest challenge is with the drivers who could care less about making more money. It is more important to for them to get home earlier. The other problem for the Teamsters is ... How are you going to police the driver who is not taking a lunch? Remember - there will always be those Teamsters who could care less about the contract.

This is very similar to that email that goes around every time gas prices go up and it tells you to boycott one particular company and that company will be forced to drop gas prices because the inventory of gas will go up. As the price starts to drop someone will break the chain and buy the gas!

 

[dannyboy]

drivers who could care less about making more money. It is more important to for them to get home earlier

And that was the reason for the 9.5 language in the contract, which someone has a hard time living up to. They even try the end run around the language by trying to intimidate the drivers to sign forms saying they dont care about 9.5's.

So it is hard to get drivers to take the contract seriously when the company wont.

Atta, your problem is you think I am personally attacking you or someone else. Believe me, there would be no question if I was of that mind set.

But I also understand those that have nothing in their lives but relativism. Nothing is right or wrong, everything depends on how I feel about it.

Deal with it. It is what it is. If you dont like it, change it. Otherwise abide by it.

d

 

[Theichii]

You are entirely responsible for this situation.

You are falsifying records, whether you choose to "see" it that way or not.

You cannot violate the contract by working off of the clock and then turn around and wave that same contract in your managements face every time they piss you off.

The reason they sent your preloader home is because you are willing to do his work for free.

The reason they give you a 12 hr day and expect you to do it in 9.5 is because you are willing to work off of the clock to make that possible.

Working before start time and skipped lunches are like heroin to management. One is too many and a thousand will never be enough. They are hooked on your free labor and the addiction will continue as long as you continue to enable it. Like any addict, they will get pissy and whiny whenever you threaten to cut them off from their habit.

If you loan a heroin addict $100...you have no right to get angry when he buys more heroin with that money instead of paying you back. You should have known better.

I do not do my preloader's work, he just can't read numbers correctly so when everything is done inside the truck i just put it in order, i never ever load, because i know that's not my job, i simply reorganize my stuff. Let me reiterate for ppl who did NOT get it the first time, i goof off, i bs and talk with drivers and walk out of my truck time and time again, all i said was i come in an hour early and set up my truck and pre record, which is "normally" only 87 stops, no loading packages or anything that anyone else would do. I also never said i skipped a lunch, no no no no no no no, bad BC posters, bad. Why would i go hungry, or better yet why would i pass up the chance to see my fiance during the day? And we don't have PAS/EDD, we have charts with numbers , so the pkgs are already in their general place, they just need some fine sorting, takes like 15-20 minutes with the pre-recording. and yes it does go faster if you don't have a board to grab every single time you get down with DR pkgs. So my main part of the topic which everybody missed was a supervisor telling me to work off the clock, when i asked him, albeit in a very sarcastic way, to get on the clock. And a center manager harassing me because he was probably still aggravated i wouldn't work off the clock. And before you say anything, loading and fine sorting a truck are two entirely different things, because my management team knows i will not load anything, if anything is outside my truck, until after the PCM and it has always been that way.

 

[dannyboy]

Let me reiterate for ppl who did NOT get it the first time,

The only one that has not "gotten it the first time" is you. What part of you do not get on your truck before start time. Period. You dont handle package before start time, period. Its you that did not get it the first time. You cant listen because you dont want to listen, you want to do things your way, and if you want to do something, then there is nothing wrong with what you want to do.

If it was your property, that might be OK. BUt you are on UPS property, so there are rules that apply. BUt you choose to ignore that fact.

So my main part of the topic which everybody missed was a supervisor telling me to work off the clock, when i asked him, ...to get on the clock.

This is where you lose credibility. The contract plainly states that management will not allow a person to work off the clock. They know that rule. While they might look the other way, there is no way they are going to try to force you to work off the clock.

As for the rest of the post, you do know what you are doing is wrong. With the exception of what I quoted above, the whole post you made was trying to justify your working off the clock. Notice I never said load, you did that. But you are trying to justify your bad behavior with all sorts of excuses and bull. Like you coming out of the truck to BS. What, you are that stupid to think that it would make a difference? Like because you spend time talking it cant really be working, because when you are on the clock you dont?

Your just like a murderer that justifies his actions with "well, they were not really human, or they needed killing, or they were gonna die anyway, and its not really killing someone, I just let them die earlier than normal" Only the situation is different.

Quit lying to yourself. That would be the first step in seeing the truth.

We git it, its you that doesn't

d

 

[BrownBlue]

Hey, (looks around) where am I, did I go through some kind of wormhole time portal thing. Who the friend works off the clock after the S this company has put us through over the years. And low and behold their are fools defending it, COME ON MAN! Give am an inch and they will want take your soul. Now, where the heck is that portal?

 

[Ms.PacMan]

I was going to start a new thread but this is the perfect thread already.

Has anyone noticed the newest addition to our safety training on the HABITS form (the form they fill out for the yearly safety rides)?

It says something to this effect - Do you arrive at work early to prepare for your day.

No kidding, they figured out how to make working off the clock before your start time a safety method!

 

[grgrcr88]

i don't find it to be falsifying records i just don't want to spend all day going through my truck trying to find things and ending up 30 miles away and finding a package i have to backtrack for. I do this for myself not for my supervisors to find it convenient, I have places to go, and people to see when i get off at night, and no one is going to stop me from having a normal job.UPS has it's way of doing things as do i. If they want to increase my workload and prevent me from doing the things i want to do, then they will have to pay dearly for it.

I dont know where you are from but around here I would file a grievance on you working off the clock and get paid time and a half for every second you did it!! You my friend have no right to complain about anything when you are taking food from the mouths of another teamster by working off the clock!! dont you see that if you are not there doing this they will have to pay someone to do it!!!

 

[grgrcr88]

obvsiously this mans time away from work in the evening is more valuable to him than that overtime money or giving someone else more work to do. Therefore it's not insane.

I don't care if they are taking time away from other people. My only argument against coming in early and setting up your load is that most cover drivers will be destroyed when they try to do your route. I know one route where the driver comes in early and sets up his load and runs his ass off all day. I fail miserably most the time at his route.

what you people dont understand is that it is a blatent contract violation to come in early and work off the clock!! Whether you like it or not you cannot do it!! If you lose your job for it, you will not be coming back!!!!!!

 

[grgrcr88]

. The other problem for the teamsters is ... How are you going to police the driver who is not taking a lunch? Remember - there will always be those teamsters who could care less about the contract.

!

in our neck of the woods people are disciplined by management for not taking lunch, and for starting early. And i am one of those rediculous people who will not even talk to management prior to my start time. Nothing is free my friend. Nothing!!!

 

[Coldworld]

This is one of the fallacies of the bonus system. I realize there are a lot of areas that either are not on bonus or just do not make bonus and this reasoning is hard to understand but a driver who earns bonus fallaciously believes that he/she is justified in working off the clock because the route is worth let's say 9.5 hours. If the driver can get it done in 8.0 hours then he/she got paid... so all is OK!

So skipping breaks or lunch or setting up the car is OK to this driver.

I really do not believe that this was the intent when bonus was started back in the earlier part of the 20th century. Unfortunately, it has morphed into that. Management turns a blind eye rationalizing just like the driver and THEN they begin to expect it. Drivers will take shortcuts. They will run, perform unsafe acts, and in some cases give poor service to their customers just to either get off earlier or make another buck or a combination of both.

I can speak from experience. I had a driver who was the highest producing driver in the entire region. He actually had family members take packages off his car and deliver them for him during peak. This is before we had helpers. His planned day at peak was between 15-17 hours and he was under 12 every day! I found out later he was like a paper boy throwing packages from the car to the front door!

Things changed in California when the lawsuits started. The state has tough laws when it comes to lunch time. The rest of the country should take heed.

There are other threads you could research that talk about this.

Bottom line - Drivers who follow the contract and use the methods as they are designed will give a consistent performance that is honest, can be measured and planned and is in the best interest of the company and our customers.

Right now in time your above statement only means that mgt has been harassing and riding with drivers..care to elabortae.

Here is a red flag - If a driver is under-allowed by more than .50 something is not kosher. Unfortunately, and why bonus can be fallacious is that we as management are geared to looking at performance problems and we ignore runners and gunners.

Can you explain this a little more, Im sure others would like to hear a deeper explanation of this..thanks

The problem is magnified though when the management team builds into their goals and plans for this type of driver performance based on dishonest performance standards.

What can honest drivers do to counteract this when so much pressure is coming down the pike now on numbers? working hard,being consistent, doing the methods, but numbers are way off daily...isnt that a red flag also???