When does this all end

[bbsam]

Really? If a god that does not exist is yet to blame for death and misery, then does that not somehow prove his/her existence in a very real sense and thus negate the premise of the athiest?

 

[wkmac]

Really? If a god that does not exist is yet to blame for death and misery, then does that not somehow prove his/her existence in a very real sense and thus negate the premise of the athiest?

If it does, it proves believers are blood thirsty killers and negates the moral arguments given by believers.

And one other thing, if this does prove god is real, I hate the immoral bastard even more and thus I am a better being than he is!

 

[bbsam]

Maybe you make the mistake of seeing atheists as immoral or you make the even bigger mistake that morality only comes from a belief in god. And I thought Wright was correct on this and I thought he was right on the "chickens coming home to roost" as well.

Not at all. But Wright left not doubt of his belief in the hubris of America causing what could also be called hubris against God. You may agree with Wright's conclusion, but I think he would vehemently disagree with your reading of the cause.

 

[wkmac]

Not at all. But Wright left not doubt of his belief in the hubris of America causing what could also be called hubris against God. You may agree with Wright's conclusion, but I think he would vehemently disagree with your reading of the cause.

That was never in question. I even think Jesus said some good things but there's reason to question if he ever did exist. But then much of what Jesus said was not new anyway.

 

[bbsam]

If it does, it proves believers are blood thirsty killers and negates the moral arguments given by believers.

If it makes you feel superior to think so. What is probably more true is that we really are "natural born killers", believers and non-believers alike and each has the ability to keep those instincts in check should he or she decide to do so.

 

[bbsam]

That was never in question. I even think Jesus said some good things but there's reason to question if he ever did exist. But then much of what Jesus said was not new anyway.

If much of what he said was not new (and I do not dispute that) then why would it be hard to believe that someone named Jesus preached such things?

 

[wkmac]

If it makes you feel superior to think so. What is probably more true is that we really are "natural born killers", believers and non-believers alike and each has the ability to keep those instincts in check should he or she decide to do so.

I can assure you that when you or I came out of the womb, we had no thought of killing anyone. If this were true, the human race would never have survived much less explode across the planet. It can also be said that the planet might even have more people if not for religion upon which death and destruction followed.

And one other thing, we were both atheists when we emerged from the womb and belief in a superior being was a learned trait. We learned the bible god of christianity and other parts of the world learned the god of their cultures. I quess I was more willing to ask the deeper questions however.

 

[bbsam]

I can assure you that when you or I came out of the womb, we had no thought of killing anyone. If this were true, the human race would never have survived much less explode across the planet. It can also be said that the planet might even have more people if not for religion upon which death and destruction followed.

And one other thing, we were both atheists when we emerged from the womb and belief in a superior being was a learned trait. We learned the bible god of christianity and other parts of the world learned the god of their cultures. I quess I was more willing to ask the deeper questions however.

Incorrect. Babies coming out of the womb are adorable creatures much like grizzly bears and leopards. Left without moral training and upbringing of some kind, we would truly emerge far bloodier and horrid. I posted a couple pictures of child soldiers on the "guns" thread. They have been trained as killers. For what lofty purpose? What parents or adults would do such a thing? Absent religion or morality, killing is easy.
What about the infamous college studies showing how easily that moral bering is broken down? What of normally decent soldiers "breaking down" prisoners at Abu Ghraib? What of our turning a blind eye to torture the world over or "keeping our hands clean" by rendering suspected terrorists to Egypt? No. We would like to believe ourselves moral or saintly, but deep down inside, killing comes easily and morality has to be worked at, practiced, and rediscovered daily.

 

[wkmac]

If much of what he said was not new (and I do not dispute that) then why would it be hard to believe that someone named Jesus preached such things?

With all the miraculous events associated with his time here, why no recordings of outside the gospels that were written 40 years after the fact? Even Paul just 20 to 30 years after makes little mention of the many miracles associated with Jesus. And Paul's writtings predate the gospels.

I find the argument that the Jesus figure may have been based on the "Teacher of Righteousness" of the Dead Sea Scrolls but then that person lived about 150 years before the Jesus figure of the gospels.

 

[wkmac]

Incorrect. Babies coming out of the womb are adorable creatures much like grizzly bears and leopards. Left without moral training and upbringing of some kind, we would truly emerge far bloodier and horrid. I posted a couple pictures of child soldiers on the "guns" thread. They have been trained as killers. For what lofty purpose? What parents or adults would do such a thing? Absent religion or morality, killing is easy.
What about the infamous college studies showing how easily that moral bering is broken down? What of normally decent soldiers "breaking down" prisoners at Abu Ghraib? What of our turning a blind eye to torture the world over or "keeping our hands clean" by rendering suspected terrorists to Egypt? No. We would like to believe ourselves moral or saintly, but deep down inside, killing comes easily and morality has to be worked at, practiced, and rediscovered daily.

And I bet those child soldiers were taught rather than a result of natural growth upon their own.

 

[bbsam]

And I bet those child soldiers were taught rather than a result of natural growth upon their own.

yes. Which is more easily produced? That child soldier or a decent, moral citizen incapable of corruption and altruistic in his motives? One is more natural than the other.

 

[wkmac]

yes. Which is more easily produced? That child soldier or a decent, moral citizen incapable of corruption and altruistic in his motives? One is more natural than the other.

Remove the fantasy delusions ascribed under the altruistic ideals called "faith" and yeah, I'd be willing to bet on humanity. Ironic how so-called civilized man built on the mythology of faith and heirarchical order has been the most destructive to mankind in the first place. And it's been the christian west that's been the alpha male (alpha monster) and look where we are as a result. Islam is the same psychopathic mindset and is just trying to become the new leader of the pack. The sooner Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah and the other names of the god of the bedouin desert dwellers is flushed into the dustbin of history alongside Zeus, Apollo and Odin, the better we will all be.

 

[Just_another_day_at_work]

"when does this all end"
My DNA says soon, there are some (hidden)connection to this tragedy with some other events. We are gonna hunt down this inter-dimensional savior of yours that jumps through our pineal gland and strangled us into 3D to make us think this is reality. If I am wrong well, then I lost a lot of enlightened funny(paper) money by next year.

 

[purplesky]

Comrade TOS,

You are. See, Freedom is complicated. You can't force/legislate your way to prosperity. Let's examine some of your rants......Right to work? You want to force(at the point of a gun)(cops) businesses to use models that ultimately lead to bankruptcy. Look around, they are everywhere....alot destroyed by unsustainable union contracts. Your very lifeblood. An end UPS will ultimately succumb to......think about that just a little. Some to think about......just about every airline, car company, aerospace, manufacturing(remember the ladies singing "look for the union label...." GE who is run by Obamas patsy, moving their manufacturing overseas. George Soros betting against the dollar, against the US. Illegals? your guy Obama is trying to flood the country with them so they can vote Democrat. Healthcare? Who is going to pay for this? You(democrats) want to force people(you included) at the end of a gun(IRS/gvt)......it's law right?


See, you can't create prosperity out of thin air. There's no magic. You can't have everyone making $40 an hour, free healthcare and a private jet in every driveway. BTW-how much should the minimum wage be? Let's say you have a small business....oh, like making vote for Obama bumper stickers....let's say. You have a couple employees....you gonna pay them $40 an hour? How about the minimum wage is $20 an hour, can you pay that? Can't? how about being fined or going to jail or maybe executed? Far out there? I don't know........how far do you let the govt. go? Keep in mind these are all the ideas you and your kind advocate and represent and beg for. Don't like these ideas? Good luck defending yourself against the tyranny of the govt.(remember you gave up your gun in the name of safety)........BTW-free education? If I don't pay for my daughters....she doesn't go. BTW-in the end.........how much freedom, rights, and ultimately your paycheck are you willing to give to the govt. to make all this stuff free? All? Again, please go live in China, North Korea.......you will find everyone just like you......paradise.

Obama doesnt even really belong in the whole outsourcing of America conversation. It started about 30 years ago. There are people at Corporations large and small that made the decision to outsource America. Bottum line is we are paying the price for it now as a society. So we now have several lost generations on our hands and some of these young people are going to act out their anger and do bad things.

THIS IS NOT REALLY A UNION ISSUE. WE HAVE ALSO LOST MILLIONS OF JOBS THAT COLLEGE GRADS NOT LONG AGO USED TO FILL RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE.

So somebody HAS OUTSOURCED FUTURE OPPORTUNITY FOR MANY OF OUR YOUTH. So now we pay the price.

There will be a future generation that will rise up and I have a feeling most of us will witness it in this lifetime. They will have nothing to lose.

 

[Jones]

[h=1]I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother[/h]

 

[want to retire]

Obama doesnt even really belong in the whole outsourcing of America conversation. It started about 30 years ago. There are people at Corporations large and small that made the decision to outsource America. Bottum line is we are paying the price for it now as a society. So we now have several lost generations on our hands and some of these young people are going to act out their anger and do bad things.

THIS IS NOT REALLY A UNION ISSUE. WE HAVE ALSO LOST MILLIONS OF JOBS THAT COLLEGE GRADS NOT LONG AGO USED TO FILL RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE.

So somebody HAS OUTSOURCED FUTURE OPPORTUNITY FOR MANY OF OUR YOUTH. So now we pay the price.

There will be a future generation that will rise up and I have a feeling most of us will witness it in this lifetime. They will have nothing to lose.

Ever heard of Jeff Immelt? CEO of GE? Head of Obama's Job Council? GE is moving lots of manufacturing to China.......Obama's guy....a direct connection. Obama definately belongs in the debate. Unions=Obama. You don't want it to involve unions.....but it does. In the end nothing about jobs has anything to do with insane crazy people that kill innocent children....NOTHING. Hell, the man couldn't even finnish highschool.....he was so dysfunctional. The idiotic mother actually took him to the gun range and taught him how to shoot and handle the weapons(the ones he killed her with)......and she knew he was insane! UNBELIEVABLE! That's where this conversation belongs.

 

[tonyexpress]

I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother

Jones, Good link. Cheryl has another website, conductdisorders.com that has many similar stories just like this on it every day. This hits home, in fact yesterday a producer from the Huffington Post contacted Cheryl to participate in a webcast with the same title as your link...

Taking care of the mentally ill in this country is a big problem and again, unfortunately through another tragedy we are learning so...

 

[wkmac]

I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother

Another POV.

You Are Not Adam Lanza's Mother

Both articles have valid points IMO but as my wife asked the other day, we've always had troubled youth but why in the last couple of decades have they begun to resort to such horrific actions? What changed in just the last 20 or so years?

 

[wkmac]

And in this conversation looking for a root cause, I'd like to throw in this talk given by Sir Ken Robinson about our public education model. This one has been presented in an RSA Animation format and is only part of the entire lecture.


RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms - YouTube

 

[moreluck]

Associated Press Story: Believe It or Not Mass Killings Are Not on the Rise, They Are on the Decline | TheBlaze.com