“The Body of Christ” with Integrity (On Topic Only”

[BrownFlush]

How Is Faith a Gift? — Ask Ligonier

"Faith comes from hearing the Word of God" -- ( Romans 10:17)

 

[BrownFlush]

Was the thief on the cross saved?

No doubt about it.
1)Jesus had authority and power to forgive while on the earth.
2) But, I'll go straight to where I think you're thinking...
Heb. 9:15-17 This passage from Hebrews shows that the New Covenant could not have begun until after Jesus died. Therefore, He saved the thief on the cross while the Old Covenant was operating, or before the baptism commanded of all people in the Great Commission came into effect. The simple fact is that the thief was not subject to the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark. 16:15-16; Luke 24:46-47).
The thief on the cross did not have to be baptized for the remission of his sins, just as David, Abraham, Noah, and Abel did not have to be baptized to have their sins forgiven. None of these individuals was amenable to the New Covenant or to the Great Commission, which lay the foundation for preaching the Gospel of Christ to all.

To conclude that people today do not need to be baptized for this purpose, as do many, is to misapprehend the teaching of the New Testament. It is a major mistake of Biblical interpretation to take a requirement of one covenant and make it applicable to people living under a different covenant.

You cannot be saved like the thief on the cross.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

jordan needs to stop being a pusillanimous and debate richard wolff

I did some digging into the matter, as far as I can tell, Peterson's issues are with cultural marxism, post-modernism, and the history of horrific violence that always seems to accompany the initiation of marxist economic systems. My guess is he probably recognizes there are people better suited to argue the actual economic issues. I'd rather see an actual economist debate Richard Wolff, I'm just not sure who any of the top pro-capitalism intellectual economists are these days.

 

[BrownFlush]

Baptism is an action. Faith is a state of mind. You can't alter reality to fit your interpretation of scripture. Or are you saying you are baptized if you believe you are? Are you being purposefully contradictory? I mean you say baptism is not a work, then you say it is an act, right in the same sentence. I think you may have some issues you need to sort out.

We have one teacher. If you want to be a disciple of Paul, then be so, if you want to be a disciple of Peter, then be so. As a Christian, I am a disciple of Jesus.

Baptism is an act of obedience to a command.
Baptism is not a work for to one earn salvation.
When someone openly acknowledges that he is a sinner doomed to hell on the basis of his own works. He then confesses that he believes that Jesus died on the cross to bear the punishment for man's sins and to offer salvation for all men. He believes in Jesus, repents of his sins, and desires to be baptized in order that his sins might be washed away.
He acknowledges that salvation is God's gift of grace to him, received upon the conditions of faith, repentance, and baptism.
Baptism is most definitely not a work whereby man earns his salvation.

Baptism is an action for what purpose ? What saith the scripture?

Faith is a state of mind? ''Faith comes from hearing the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
What kind of faith do you have? A dead faith? Or a faith that is alive and living?
A faith that is alive leads one to action. It was not barren! "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (Jas. 2:20). "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (Jas 2:26). They did not have a dead faith, but an active, working faith, bringing their wills into obedience to the will of God ("obedience of faith" Rom. 1:5; 16:26).

It is easy to make the claim or to profess faith. A lot of people are "faithful" in claim only! James said, ". . . shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew you my faith by my works." (Jas. 2:18).

Disciple of who?
"What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" ( 1Cor.1:12-13)
The New Testament is the Lord's last will and testament.

A key is an instrument used to open a door and one who has a key has the power and authority of access. So a key is often used in the Scriptures as a symbol of power and authority. For example, God promised the Messiah, "The key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; and he shall shut, and none shall open" (Isa. 22:22). And, the risen Lord is said to have "the keys of death and of Hades" and "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Rev. 1:18; 3:7).

So, "the keys of the kingdom," Jesus promises Peter, represent the power and authority to open the door of the kingdom, church. Peter used this power, given to him by the Lord, to open the door of the church through the preaching of the gospel, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles (Acts 2:14-36; 10). Peter reminded his brethren of this privilege during the apostolic council at Jerusalem. ". . . Peter rose up and said to them: 'Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe'" (Acts 15:7).

While Peter alone was given the power of the "keys," the privilege of first opening the church to the world, he was not alone in the power of "binding and loosing." The privilege of authority in the kingdom or church, through binding and loosing, was given to all the apostles (see Mt. 18:18-20).
This power or authority, Jesus delegated to his apostles, was not based upon their human wisdom. The binding and loosing of the apostles was to be based upon what had already been bound and loosed in heaven and revealed to them. Peter's use of the keys will be in accord with the teaching and mind of Christ. Elsewhere, Jesus promised the apostles they would be guided into all truth, which they would bind and loose, by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:13; Gal. 1:11-12).

 

[BrownFlush]

0


He also said that "he who does not believe is condemned" not "he who is not baptized is comdemned".

But what of it? Believe and be baptized vs just believe. The point is you are not earning your salvation, even the wealthy young man who Jesus acknowledged followed the law could not save himself through acts. James' had the best explanation of salvation by faith vs salvation through good deeds. Faith without works is dead. Good deeds aren't enough by themselves. Just as baptism is an outward sign of your faith, so are good deeds, but those actions do not save you, your belief in Jesus and He who sent him saves you.

If something written by one of the apostles doesn't quite make sense, I always go to the actual authority, and do my best to interpret what they said within the context of the teachings of Jesus. Even some things Jesus taught I can't explain, but he is still the one Teacher, the rest of us are brothers.

If there is no faith (belief) there will be no baptism.
Please give the scripture where baptism is an outward sign of your faith.

 

[BrownFlush]

What are the seven baptisms mentioned in the Bible, and what do they mean? | GotQuestions.org

Disagree with 5 & 7

 

[BrownFlush]

I honestly don't know what you're arguing anymore. Break it down, what are your main issues with what has been said, and what is your scripture to back it up?

I'm not arguing anything.
I don't know of any issues except trying to do this on a cell phone.

 

[BrownFlush]

And Jesus said whoever is not against us is for us.

Matthew 9:

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

As for the baptism issue, I think we may not exactly agree on what that means. When I was talking about baptism being a symbol of faith, I specifically meant the water baptism. But baptism also means trial, hardship or difficulty. Jesus called his crucifixion a baptism. Our baptism, as followers of Jesus, can be seen as the trials and difficulties we will face as a result of following him. I don't know if that is what you are getting at or not.

We are all responsible for our own understanding of the scripture. We will necessarily interpret things differently. I don't believe we are meant to use our understanding as a bludgeon to keep others in line with what we think scripture means. But we are called to be like iron sharpening iron to help each other grow in our faith.

1. Does the gospel require immersion in water for salvation?
Yes, water baptism for remission of sins is part of the gospel message! The sinner must be “born of water and the Spirit,” he must “believe and be baptized” “for the remission of sins” — this means going “down into the water” and coming “up out of the water” — “baptism doth also now save us” (John 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 8:35-38; 1 Pet. 3:20-21).

2. Is baptism my Savior?
Water baptism is not the Savior any more than faith is. Christ offered the final and perfect sacrifice for sin and that alone is the basis for our salvation (Rom. 5:6-8). God’s provision of salvation is broad enough to save all men, but God does not force anyone to be saved. So, our reception of salvation is conditional.

If we wish to receive pardon from all past sins, we must believe the gospel (John 3:16 and many other passages), repent of our sins (Acts 3:19 and many other passages), confess Christ as God’s Son (Rom. 10:8-10 and many other passages), and be immersed in water (Mark 16:16 and many other passages). None of these conditions is the Savior Christ is, but we cannot receive forgiveness of sin through Christ until we meet these conditions.
In this way we are born again, “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5).

3. Doesn’t the Bible say we are saved by faith?
We are saved by faith, but “not by faith only” (Jas. 2:24). Faith must lead to repentance (not repentance only), confession of Christ (not confession only), and immersion in water (not baptism only). Just as we are saved by faith, but not faith only, the Bible also says we are saved by baptism, but it does not say baptism only (1 Pet. 3:21). All of these steps or conditions are certainly tied to faith, they cannot occur except by faith but faith without these steps is not saving faith.

Hope this sharpens some of your iron and increases your knowledge of scripture.

 

[Integrity]

Why do you love God?

 

[Integrity]

I'm not arguing anything.
I don't know of any issues except trying to do this on a cell phone.

Let it be known that much of what has been talked about on this discussion thread from all points of view are common and different systematic viewpoints or schools of thought about faith, practice, theology, religion and truth. They are long standing arguments of theologians gone past.

It is my opinion (although someone may argue with this point and ask me for a Bible verse that states this...and then say he is not arguing ) these viewpoints all use the Bible as the basis for their arguments. These biblical differing points of view have been argued over many years.

And yes in my opinion saying one side is right and saying one side is wrong and giving reasons for why you believe others are wrong is arguing. Just as I here am arguing @BrownFlush’ point that he has made saying he has not been arguing when my argument is that he has.

Divisions of the body of Christ abound because of many of these theological argument

I am not claiming I am right about anything I have shared, I share what I believe ( my opinion if you will) on these topics and in this thread. Live and Let Live is a motto I use.

To all reading:

I believe God loves all His creation. I believe He loves you, and most importantly I believe He loves me.

 

[rickyb]

I did some digging into the matter, as far as I can tell, Peterson's issues are with cultural marxism, post-modernism, and the history of horrific violence that always seems to accompany the initiation of marxist economic systems. My guess is he probably recognizes there are people better suited to argue the actual economic issues. I'd rather see an actual economist debate Richard Wolff, I'm just not sure who any of the top pro-capitalism intellectual economists are these days.

i suspect he pussed out

 

[BrownFlush]

Let it be known

It is my opinion (although someone may argue with this point and ask me for a Bible verse that states this...and then say he is not arguing )

Let it be known
When one ask for a Bible verse, that is not arguing. The one is simply asking for the scriptural authority of your opinion. If you have no verse to back up your opinion. it is simply that.

"And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” Jesus answered them, “I also will ask you one question, and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?" -- Matt .21: 23 -25

When it comes to eternity and spiritual things, the things one believes and teaches will do one no good if it comes from man.

 

[cachmeifucan]

Raised Lutheran, now non denominational. Pray everyday try not to sin. Most churches are in the business of immigration now. The real Pope Ratzinger. This fake Pope is a liberal for abortion and gay rights. I respect muslims because Koran doesn't change.

 

[BrownFlush]

Why do you love God?

On phone again... I couldn’t begin too answer all the reasons with my thumbs... maybe more on this later when computer is in front of me

 

[Integrity]

Let it be known
When one ask for a Bible verse, that is not arguing. The one is simply asking for the scriptural authority of your opinion. If you have no verse to back up your opinion. it is simply that.

"And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” Jesus answered them, “I also will ask you one question, and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?" -- Matt .21: 23 -25

When it comes to eternity and spiritual things, the things one believes and teaches will do one no good if it comes from man.

Well said.

Agree with most of this.

Still think you are at times using scripture to argue your points instead of simply stating your beliefs.

I could be wrong but it is just my opinion.

Enjoy your day!

 

[cachmeifucan]

Why do you love God?

Because I woke up. Because I got 2 healthy kids and a wife. A good job to provide. Because I was born in usa. Because I was in a bad car accident at 15 and walked away unhurt. Out of nowhere a priest came to pray with me while everyone else was unconscious and stuck in car while the ambulance was stuck on the other side of a freight train

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Let it be known
When one ask for a Bible verse, that is not arguing. The one is simply asking for the scriptural authority of your opinion. If you have no verse to back up your opinion. it is simply that.

"And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” Jesus answered them, “I also will ask you one question, and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?" -- Matt .21: 23 -25

When it comes to eternity and spiritual things, the things one believes and teaches will do one no good if it comes from man.

None of the scriptures you cite really, definitively prove any of the points you apparently aren't arguing. Mark 16:16 does not mention water. James 2:24 doesn't mention baptism at all, as you seem to suggest.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Wow, ok, the verse you referenced says directly water is a symbol of baptism. Do you read the verses you reference first?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Ok, very simply put. Direct from the mouth of the teacher. I can agree that he is talking about being baptized by water. That doesn't mean it's not symbolic.

Accepting the gift of salvation requires repentance, for sure, and we are not saved by that repentance as we are not saved by baptism, I think we agree on that.

You say you have to be water baptized to wash away your sin, though Jesus didn't say that.

1 John 1:7 But if we live in the light, as God does, we share in life with each other. And the blood of his Son Jesus washes all our sins away.

Matthew 3:11 "I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

Mark 10:38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”

So, does the water of baptism wash your sins away? Or is it the blood of Christ? If it's the blood, why do we need the water? If it's the water, why would we need the blood? If faith and water baptism was all we needed, why the sacrifice? What faith does it really take to be dunked under water? It can only really be seen as a symbolic gesture, as Peter said. We are baptized by the blood of Christ, my friend, and perhaps, the fire of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is certainly necessary for salvation, being dunked is a symbol.

 

[BrownFlush]

Well said.

Agree with most of this.

Still think you are at times using scripture to argue your points instead of simply stating your beliefs.

I could be wrong but it is just my opinion.

Enjoy your day!

Yes you could be wrong.
That’s the problem with opinions.
I use scripture to simply state what God said about whatever the issue. There is no argument.
If it runs counter to your position or belief, who are you disagreeing with? Not me .

This is a fact:
When two people discuss a passage in the Bible and they have two different opinions about what the passage is teaching and says, both cannot be right.
Both can be wrong, but only one can be right.
There can be only one right answer.
The Bible is it’s own best interrupter. It reveals The truth.
Rejecting what God says is nothing new. People have done it for centuries.

 

[Integrity]

Yes you could be wrong.
That’s the problem with opinions.
I use scripture to simply state what God said about whatever the issue. There is no argument.
If it runs counter to your position or belief, who are you disagreeing with? Not me .

This is a fact:
When two people discuss a passage in the Bible and they have two different opinions about what the passage is teaching and says, both cannot be right.
Both can be wrong, but only one can be right.
There can be only one right answer.
The Bible is it’s own best interrupter. It reveals The truth.
Rejecting what God says is nothing new. People have done it for centuries.

When I first experienced God’s love for me I was prone to black and white thinking and living as well.

As I sought to get closer and closer to the living God during my spiritual journey I was eventually freed from the prison of black and white thinking.

Today when I read the Bible I do it to relate and possibly hear from the living Word of God, Jesus.

 

[Integrity]

None of the scriptures you cite really, definitively prove any of the points you apparently aren't arguing. Mark 16:16 does not mention water. James 2:24 doesn't mention baptism at all, as you seem to suggest.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Wow, ok, the verse you referenced says directly water is a symbol of baptism. Do you read the verses you reference first?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Ok, very simply put. Direct from the mouth of the teacher. I can agree that he is talking about being baptized by water. That doesn't mean it's not symbolic.

Accepting the gift of salvation requires repentance, for sure, and we are not saved by that repentance as we are not saved by baptism, I think we agree on that.

You say you have to be water baptized to wash away your sin, though Jesus didn't say that.

1 John 1:7 But if we live in the light, as God does, we share in life with each other. And the blood of his Son Jesus washes all our sins away.

Matthew 3:11 "I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

Mark 10:38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”

So, does the water of baptism wash your sins away? Or is it the blood of Christ? If it's the blood, why do we need the water? If it's the water, why would we need the blood? If faith and water baptism was all we needed, why the sacrifice? What faith does it really take to be dunked under water? It can only really be seen as a symbolic gesture, as Peter said. We are baptized by the blood of Christ, my friend, and perhaps, the fire of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is certainly necessary for salvation, being dunked is a symbol.

Thanks for the contribution, very well put.