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jbul_ups

Guest
"These additions were intended to accomplish twin purposes. On the one hand, the most serious abuses of compulsory unionism were eliminated by abolishing the closed shop. On the other hand, Congress recognized that in the absence of a union-security provision "many employees sharing the benefits of what unions are able to accomplish by collective bargaining will refuse to pay their share [373 U.S. 734, 741] of the cost." S. Rep. No. 105, 80th Cong., 1st Sess., p. 6, 1 Leg. Hist. L. M. R. A. 412. Consequently, under the new law "employers would still be permitted to enter into agreements requiring all the employees in a given bargaining unit to become members 30 days after being hired," but "expulsion from a union cannot be a ground of compulsory discharge if the worker is not delinquent in paying his initiation fee or dues." S. Rep. No. 105, p. 7, 1 Leg. Hist. L. M. R. A. 413. The amendments were intended only to "remedy the most serious abuses of compulsory union membership and yet give employers and unions who feel that such agreements promoted stability by eliminating `free riders' the right to continue such arrangements." Ibid. As far as the federal law was concerned, all employees could be required to pay their way. The bill "abolishes the closed shop but permits voluntary agreements for requiring such forms of compulsory membership as the union shop or maintenance of membership . . . ." S. Rep. No. 105, p. 3, 1 Leg. Hist. L. M. R. A. 409. U.S. Supreme Court
LABOR BOARD v. GENERAL MOTORS, 373 U.S. 734
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
"Unions contribute to the economic health of the nation by`leveling the field between labor and management,' as Senator Orrin Hatch has stated. `If you didn't have unions,' Senator Hatch continued," it would be very difficult for even enlightened employers to not take advantage of workers on wages and working conditions because of rivals.Indeed, as we noted in the Fact Finding Report, and as the President's Council of Economic Advisors also has concluded, the recent decline in the proportion of workers represented by unions has `contributed to the rise in inequality' in the United States.The majority of managers and workers with experience under collective bargaining agree with this assessment. Both the Worker Representation and Participation Survey and others before it report that about 90 percent of union members would vote to retain their membership if asked. Approximately 70 percent rate their experience with their union as good or very good. Sixty-four percent of the managers surveyed agreed that the union in their companies makes the work lives of its members better.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
Free riders,when I belonged to PATCO, we called them SCABS,and cheapos. They got the benefits our union negotiated , but carried none of the burden. Perhaps a true right to work law would read, you negotiate your own contract, you represent yourself or hire your own lawyer,you be at the mercy of the employer's generosity. Wonder how many free riders would become dues paying members.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
"closed shop" excuse my poor choice of terms, I'm from the old school.union shop,agency shop,still boils down too if you wanna work here, join the union,except, of course in those right to work states.
 
M

my2cents

Guest
Here's an old abridged editorial I managed to find. There is
nothing wrong with unions, once you remove the compulsory aspects
of it. Jbul, I agree, workers should be free to contract on an
indivdual basis or join a union.

Economics of Unionism

In a free society, people have the right to form voluntary
associations. Therefore, any impediment, including so-called
right-to-work laws, to people joining and forming labor unions
is offensive. On the other hand, when union membership or dues
payment is made mandatory as a condition of employment, that
is equally offensive. Union leaders argue that collective bargaining
benefits all workers, even those who aren't members. They should
be allowed to "free-ride", thus compulsory dues are justified.
That's a little more complex argument, but the fact that one person
benefits from the activities of another doesn't necessarily make the
case for compulsory payments. For example, I catch my neighbor
enjoying my beautiful rhododendrons, should she be forced to pay
part of their costs rather than "free-riding"?

Union leaders argue that their struggle for higher wages is against
the employer and their major weapon in that struggle is the strike.
They're wrong on both counts. By itself, the strike is not much of a
weapon. Instead, union power lies in its ability to prevent employers
from hiring other workers in their places. They can achieve this either
through labor laws or violence. Otherwise, a strike is little more
than a mass resignation. That's why the 1981 air traffic controllers'
union strike was a disaster; they could not prevent the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) from hiring other workers. The real
struggle of labor unions is against other workers. Their ability to
demand wages that may exceed their productivity depends on their
ability to prevent employers from hiring replacements.

Competition is always between either seller and seller or buyer and
buyer - not buyer and seller. If Walmart wanted to rig the game in
order to charge higher prices, it would try to get Kmart and Sears
(other sellers) out of the market not you and me (buyers). Unions
represent sellers, in this case sellers of labor services. They
benefit from restricting entry by other sellers (workers) and having
more buyers (employers). This aspect of the conflict between unions
and other workers is seen by the fact that when there's a strike
involving violence, it is workers who disagree with the union who
are most likely to be assaulted, injured or killed by union members,
not employers.

Higher wages are not caused by unionism. If unionization was the
route to higher wages and living standards, poverty could be wiped
out instantly in countries like Haiti, Zaire and Romania simply by
unionization.

High wages are related to worker productivity. The challenge is to
make people more productive. One way is through what economist call
investment in human capital i.e., education and skills training.
Another is through greater formation of physical capital - machinery,
tools and equipment. When we see highway construction, around the
world, workers using a lot of heavy equipment receive higher wages
than those using picks and shovels. Heavy equipment operators are
more productive because they're working with more capital. Therefore,
rising wages are tied to increased capital formation. One way to
increase capital formation is to change our tax policy that makes
capital formation more costly - eliminate capital gains and corporate
profit tax.

The bottom line protection for today's workers is rising worker
productivity and many employers competing for their services. After
all the bulk of our labor force is not unionized and for the most
part doing quite well.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
2Cents,
I guess we have to agree that we disagree. I'm pro-union, your anti-union. Just one point. I was a PATCO member in 1981. We all walked due to our concerns for aviation saftey. Had nothing to do with money,(we were prevented by law from bargaining over wages),had everything to do with antiquated equipment and unsafe staffing levels. I will only say this, Reagan did me a favor, the old, shoot me and put me out of my misery. I never looked back, and now see, had I remained a controller, I would probably be on disability by now. Reagan managed to bust one union, but it was not long till another sprang up in it's place.There is still concern over the same issues we struck over, inadaquate tools to do the job expected, and the new union continues the fight.
 
M

my2cents

Guest
Jbul,

One minor point. I don't believe in compulsory unionism, but this does not make me anti-union. I simply believe in freedom of choice. If one thinks its in one's best interest to join a union, one should be free to do so. Likewise, if one prefers to represent oneself or to refrain from union activity, this should also be a free, not forced, choice. Just as you say, we agree to disagree. Thanks for the debate.
 
R

retired

Guest
I hope that the sentiment expressed by Weidermeyer and Hoffa trickles down to the rank and file on both sides. This change in the Teamster's leadership style will benefit both the IBT and UPS.
 
T

tieguy

Guest
You have to wonder just how much better We can do if the teamsters and UPS are working together for a change.
 
B

brownbear

Guest
Carey was a nightmare leader for the IBT. He disgraced his own union with his corruption and thirst for fame and power. He manipulated the situation and would have recommended a strike no matter what UPS would have put on the table. He wanted to see his name in the spotlight and as a result hurt both the IBT and UPS.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
I make $3.10 more an hour by the end of the contract,my pension and health and welfare are still with Central States, and UPS is making good on the 10,000 part time to full time jobs(kinda). I'm a happy camper,and if need be , I would walk again.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
It's National Pull On Time Initiative week. What a joke at our hub. They have a coouple supes with radios running around the ooutbound doors , calling up depature info for outbounds. Now, some of these drivers are still doing paper work,hooking up, but hell, on paper they are out the gate.Isn't this a bit dishonest?
 
M

moreluck

Guest
With all the back & forth discussion about what the unions have or haven't done, I'm reminded of the episode of All in the Family where Archie has just gotten back to work after a lengthy dock workers strike. He's bragging about all the things the union got for him. His family suffered a lot during the strike. He's so proud, until the son-in-law (Meathead) sits him down and explains to him that even though Archie thinks he's ahead of the game, so much of what he lost during the strike is un-recoverable. The repartee of the past week or so reminds me of Archie & Meathead arguing back & forth. No point, just an observation.
 
E

ewavegiveitup

Guest
Until you work a job. You really don't know what the job entails. It's only your "opinion" of what is going on.
 
M

my2cents

Guest
<!-NOTE: Message edited by 'admin'-!>I believe more luck is correct about this. I think the UPS strike was an economic loser. To those who are interested, check out this link:

www.epf.org/ff/ff4-3.htm

Generally speaking, whatever wage gains accomplished by striking are unrecoverable over the life of the contract by the time spent out on strike. In my opinion, strikes don't make economic sense.
 
T

tieguy

Guest
Jbul,
you would have walked no matter what. you just dont like UPS. And it sounds like your dislike started with your frustrations as an air traffic controller.
 
T

tieguy

Guest
No its his opinion seated in his desire to find only the bad. Here UPS recognizes the need to have loads pull on time, recognizes it has to be an across the board effort and JBul looks for whatever negatives he can find and then posts his twisted view on any and all message boards he can find. How many boards did you end up posting this same screwed up hate message on;JBul?
 
X

xbrown

Guest
Hey tieguy,
I'm an xtieguy and the strike had a profound affect on me and my judgement in handling the workers who came back after it was over. I know all the war stories because we lived it -- the 18 hour days and no thanks afterward. Since I was in a department that was not teamsters but serviced the equipment the teamsters drove, 99% of our union people honored the picket line.
Jbul is your atypical teamster. He gets his cake, eats it and tries to eat yours. I believe you are correct when you say he will walk at the drop of a hat. Not knowing his background, he has an argument for everything and has the pretense to acknowlede he hears you but is not listening. Let's face it, he's right and the company is wrong. I've seen the likes of him get his due. He may be smart in his own mind but someone else is smarter. Someday, someone will catch up to him.
And the hourly wage, certainly not enough.
Having fun writing and reading.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
Tieguy,
Next time your flying, keep a close eye out the window. You might be surprised what you see. The FAA can not fulfill it's mission of promoting air travel, and oversee saftey at the same time.Controllers are still using pre Korean war radar to guide you safely through the sky. Worry.
But I won't get into it all. Go look it up and read about the state of the US airway system equipment. It's been in the news alot lately.
 
J

jbul_ups

Guest
oh , tieguy, yes I and 12,000 other controllers were very frustrated that the airway trust fund had hundreds of billions of dollars in it, but the government wouldn't use it for improvements in equipment as it was intended, because it was being used to help balance the budget. Check that out!
 
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