Company and teamsters have a tenative agreement taking over Central States ?

[JonFrum]

Re: Let's All Do Our Homework!

Wkmac,
True, but we can get a good idea by looking at the similar plans UPS has been running all along. This will also prepare everyone to ask the right questions when the actual plan details are released. (Assuming they actually release many details. They didn't last time in 1997.)

Ah Jon has come out of hiding. Your're right carey did not release any details . Carey refused to discuss the poor health of the pension plans. Carey ran for the door rather then discuss it at all. Your point?

The Local 804 Pension Fund and the Local 177 Pension Fund are both in tough shape even though they are run in part by UPS.

Are they really or is this part of the teamsters misinformation campaign that you have been tasked with presenting here? How much of a part. Who controls the other parts Jon? If for instance UPS controls 177 as you claim jon then why have they not been able to put in the cuts you claim they are trying to put in?

I was refering to UPS' lack of pension plan details. After all, they were the ones making the wild proposal to create a new pension plan in '97. The burden was on them. They never did show us an actual plan. Just a sales brochure, *after* we struck.
_ _ _ _ _

UPS controls half the trustees of the Local 177 pension plan. As I've stated before, when half the trustees are management, and the other half labor, this is a receipe for stalement. Typically both sides vote as a block and cancel each other out. In Local 177's case, the trustees are deadlocked and the matter is before an arbitrator who will break the tie, guy.

 

[sawdusttv]

Seriously, trying to talk to you is like trying to teach Einstein's Theory of Relativity to a brick. I never said anything about sitting back to let anyone do as they please. I DID say that we should wait to see what kind of offer is made before anyone gets worked up over rumors, but you failed to grasp that concept. There may be a time to get worked up AFTER we see something in writing, but until we see a real offer, it's nothing but wasted energy. To recap, I simply stated that no matter how much you cry about it, your money is never coming out of Central States. I'm not even sure if they're legally ALLOWED to remove it. All I'm saying is that common sense would seem to dictate that the best case scenario would be a plan that helps the guys with 20+ years a minimal amount, guys with 10-20 years moderately and 0-10 years the most. Part of the reason for that would be that guys with 20+ years have the most "protected" years and would be hit with the smallest early retirement penalties. If the company presents a reasonable alternative to CS and you're against it simply because it doesn't benefit you the most, then I encourage you to look at guys like Red who are willing to take a hit on the raise to help US out. Expecting UPS to keep dumping more and more money into a failing plan is no solution. Could we force them to do so? Probably. Will it fix CS? No. Will it eventually become a financial drain on the company, potentially dragging it down the same path as the auto industry? Possibly. So if anyone has a "great plan" it's you.

OK Guy,
I'm sorry, I forgot that you are the all knowing Einstein and those of us down here in the mortar joints should just shut up and provide the foundation for your soap box.
Wait to see and offer?????
In my 25 years I have never seen a written offer. From what I have seen when the time comes they don't want us to have time to study it and make an educated decision. When the company and the union come to an agreement between themselves, the union will tell us that they indorse the contract proposal and that we should vote yes, without showing us anything in writing. We should just go on blind faith in the union. Then they push the vote through as fast as possible, and before we know it, we have a contract and don't even know what we voted on.
So don't even try and sell this crap that we should sit back and wait to see an offer. You're not going to see one!!!! The union is going to tell you to vote yes and magically it wil pass and we have a new contract that we know very little about.

 

[GuyinBrown]

There is no point in trying to get through to you. You're afraid of both the company AND the union. Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to make it through the day. Good luck, I hope your unrealistic expectations materialize for you.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Let's All Do Our Homework!

I was refering to UPS' lack of pension plan details. After all, they were the ones making the wild proposal to create a new pension plan in '97. The burden was on them. They never did show us an actual plan. Just a sales brochure, *after* we struck.

No jon get it right. Your union never showed you the proposal. We were not allowed to present it to you directly. As you know ups is not allowed negotiate directly with the members they have to present it through the teamsters negotiating committee. The teamsters had the proposal and refused to discuss it with you. Keep it real Jon.
_ _ _ _ _

UPS controls half the trustees of the Local 177 pension plan. As I've stated before, when half the trustees are management, and the other half labor, this is a receipe for stalement. Typically both sides vote as a block and cancel each other out. In Local 177's case, the trustees are deadlocked and the matter is before an arbitrator who will break the tie, guy.

thank you for admitting ups does not control the pensions. Unfortunately you again put a different spin on it this time. Keep it real Jon.

 

[JonFrum]

Re: Let's All Do Our Homework!

No jon get it right. Your union never showed you the proposal. We were not allowed to present it to you directly. As you know ups is not allowed negotiate directly with the members they have to present it through the teamsters negotiating committee. The teamsters had the proposal and refused to discuss it with you. Keep it real Jon.

There was no real proposal for the Union to show us. The Plan didn't exist! Even the Company sales brochure that we saw during the strike was full of bad features. Some were stated, others, you had to read between the lines. I remember being shocked at how bad it was. The Union didn't present it to us because, in their judgement, it was *very* unacceptable. Their role was to make such judgements. They were our bargaining agent. The Company was counting on the "headline" of a $3,000 pension (for a small number of people, but people who would likely vote, and vote "Yes") to carry the day. But the Devil was in the details, or lack thereof.
_ _ _ _ _

The Company can not NEGOTIATE with us, but they can talk to us and inform us, and even hold "captive audience" meetings on Company time with us. All perfectly legal. The Company always has first amendment rights, just like anyone else. Your theory that "your hands are tied," which you have used before, was wrong then, and is wrong now. Your presence on Browncafe illustrates my point.

 

[sawdusttv]

There is no point in trying to get through to you. You're afraid of both the company AND the union. Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to make it through the day. Good luck, I hope your unrealistic expectations materialize for you.

AFRAID!!!!!
No friend, I'm just laying it out there on the line for you and you just want to glance at it out of the corner of your eye instead o facing the truth and looking the situation square in the eye.
I believe that you are the one that is afraid !
Just don't pay it any attention and it will fix itself, RIGHT!!!!!!

 

[GuyinBrown]

AFRAID!!!!!
No friend, I'm just laying it out there on the line for you and you just want to glance at it out of the corner of your eye instead o facing the truth and looking the situation square in the eye.
I believe that you are the one that is afraid !
Just don't pay it any attention and it will fix itself, RIGHT!!!!!!

Are you retarded? Seriously. At no point have I advocated looking the other way, laying down, or letting whoever do whatever. That all came from you. I made 2 points...

1- You can cry all you want, but whatever is in Central States is staying there. I hope I'm wrong, but I know I'm not. Come contract time, feel free to tell me "I told you so" all you want if you get your wish.

2- I said there was no point in getting worked up over RUMORS until we had some kind of offer, written or verbal. I did say written originally, and you're right that we won't be handed a full, official copy of the contract offer, but I can guarantee we'll see something on paper, from one side or the other, outlining the bullet points of any offer that is made. It will either come from the Union or management, not somebody posting something they "heard" on an internet message board. THAT is the time to get worked up if you see something you don't like. Everything else that you're trying to accuse me of has come from YOU. Keep trying to spin it your way, I can do this all day....

 

[sawdusttv]

Are you retarded? Seriously. At no point have I advocated looking the other way, laying down, or letting whoever do whatever. That all came from you. I made 2 points...

1- You can cry all you want, but whatever is in Central States is staying there. I hope I'm wrong, but I know I'm not. Come contract time, feel free to tell me "I told you so" all you want if you get your wish.

2- I said there was no point in getting worked up over RUMORS until we had some kind of offer, written or verbal. I did say written originally, and you're right that we won't be handed a full, official copy of the contract offer, but I can guarantee we'll see something on paper, from one side or the other, outlining the bullet points of any offer that is made. It will either come from the Union or management, not somebody posting something they "heard" on an internet message board. THAT is the time to get worked up if you see something you don't like. Everything else that you're trying to accuse me of has come from YOU. Keep trying to spin it your way, I can do this all day....

Guy,
There you go again, first I'm a brick, now I'm a retarded brickwell, my name calling friend, you are the one that just doesn't get it. Do you not understand that if we wait until contract time when they throw an offer out there it will be to late. By the time they show us an offer, verbally, written or however we want have the time to study it talk about it and make an educated choice. They will be rushing us to a vote and telling us how to vote with the purpose of not giving you enough time to think it out. No friend, we need to be sending them a message way before that, and that message to the company and the union is that leaving us in a sub-par pension situation is unexceptable and will not be tolerated, and if they want a contract to pass, they had better figure out a way to correct these problems, not try and cover them up with smoke and mirrors. History has proven that waiting until they throw a sub-par offer at us is not the way to go. We get burned every time we do that. We need to send the message loud and clear and early!!! So that they know that we will not play that game this time!!!!!!

 

[syounga]

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