tieguy
Banned
We sure have had a lot of new liberal posters come out of nowhere to push the left side issues lately. Anyone know How their getting in maybe we can place a few roach motels and slow them down.
Gov healthcare
- Thread starter DS
- Start date
We sure have had a lot of new liberal posters come out of nowhere to push the left side issues lately. Anyone know How their getting in maybe we can place a few roach motels and slow them down.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
I'm sorry tieguy, but I think that post I made about no one honoring bho's birthday here is the cause of this nonsense explosion.We sure have had a lot of new liberal posters come out of nowhere to push the left side issues lately. Anyone know How their getting in maybe we can place a few roach motels and slow them down.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Good post Tony. You beat me to it.
Here's another from Counterpunch who flat sez "progressives" should be joining the hecklers at the Town Hall meetings.
bold and underlinded emphasis is mine
Why Aren't Progressives Disrupting ObamaCare Town Halls?
And there's this (at Counterpunch) from the founder of singlepayer who sez the following in defending the TownHall protesting:
Even though I don't support single payer myself and I'm not blind to serious problems with healthcare nor the fact that our dollar is a devaluing medium of exchange worth now about $0.04 in purchasing power and probably dropping again (many of the ills of healthcare are found here IMO) the current Obama plan IMO is nothing but a cartel created by the state and further state interventions from an entity that caused most all the problems in the first place. Oh they had a very willing partner in certain corp. special interests but it's the State who we've given the power of force and those corp. interests used it like a fine chisel to carve out their own perfect world.
And considering the power of collective force as an aside, did you ever ask yourself, if you as an individual don't have any power to force another human being to act against their will or in the self interest of yours, then how can you enter a voting booth and with other individuals bestore on a 3rd party a power collectively that none of us ever held individually?
I find it most ironic that there are more and more progressives who say they don't believe in Free Market, pure Laissez Faire principles (a general characterization if you will) and yet at least when it comes to State Corp. Priviledge and Cartelization and opposing it as FM/LF economic principles demand, they get it.
I'm not one to rely on polls especially over time because poll questions are often worded IMO to drive a specific outcome but in looking and reading progressive/paleo liberal voices, it's coming more and more clear at least to me that the drop in polls like the ones below may be from the solid core progressive/paleo lib who are realizing now that their own party has been hijacked by a bunch of "NEO's" too! Good for them!
For those Obamatons still in lovefest mode, your problem is very similar to the last adminstration's problem, your President is completely surrounded by the wrong people!
tieguy
Banned
I think if you look deep there is more then just a few hecklers showing up against the government run health care plan. There are a lot of people genuinely worried about where government is going with our health care.
Progressives really can not raise hell in defense because there really is little in detail to support out there with multiple bills working their way through congress.
Love the pic of the great one peeing on the US. definitely going in my collection for a later time.
moreluck
golden ticket member
Did you see the clip of Sheila Jackson Lee (I think that's her name) taking a cell phone call in the middle of a lady's question at a town hall meeting? That's the heighth of rudeness......I don't think she took a phone call while she was attending Michael Jackson"s funeral and pitching for a memorial for Michael. Our reps. are all idiots !!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Tie,
Absolutely. I think there is a lot more of that than some want to admit. People are scared not because of some rightwing spin job but because there is so little detail having been put out in the first place and then if
we want to walk down that path, we've granted a huge growth medium for people to take the issue and spin it off to their own purposes because so little in detail is actually known. Democrats made the same mistake if you will as republicans in not being forthcoming with all facts for whatever reason and then assuring we should trust them only to later learn reality didn't always fit in the end what we were told. You can argue it was a well intentioned honest mistake but it was a mistake none the less. Americans with healthcare seem to have the attitude it's better to have the devil you know rather than the devil that you don't and I understand that.
This is also why I think arguing say with a Canadian or visa versa for a Canadian to argue with many of us is a waste of time. In the end, to use a sports analogy, we're all just a bunch of homers who love our own devils.
Now those for this plan are forced to step up to try and explain after the fact and it just doesn't sell after the campaign promise of transparency, openness and change. The average folk are seeing that and people more and more just don't trust gov't anymore and sadly gov't doesn't do a whole lot IMO to earn any trust either, regardless of political party.
There is something wrong with the healthcare system, I understand that POV but the solution IMO is not for some backroom deal be made and then elected officials throw it out as some manna from heaven in the form of 1000 plus pages we and our elected officials are to digest in a matter of hours and then vote to as some believe overturn heaven and hell?. This issue should be openly and completely discussed in the public arena "OVER TIME", all options and all sides get a fair hearing if you will and nothing is left off the table. Show all the pros and cons and be transparent. Why has this whole thing been all of a sudden turned into such a crisis to almost equate to the end of mankind as we know it no matter which way we vote on this thing. I'm not convinced at all that it has reached such levels either way and the only reason to go so far is to slip something past the public and all speed is needed to maintain political advantage because in the end what you are really doing has other motives that the people might not like if they truly knew.
It's often said and always so true IMO, Sunshine is the greatest disinfectant and the biggest problem the healthcare issue has is lots of sunshine!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Tie,
As to the pic, I thought a number of you would like it. I started to PM Brett and send it him for a possible avatar but I just didn't think he was as out there on the edge as I am and would do it! In fact Brett was my first thought when I saw it and would be a great follow up to his current one.
I actually did a search for a Bush pic doing the same and I was surprised to not find one. I'm watching the matrix as I write and I see Diesel buying a photoshop program as we speak!
I did find this one however that I do hope comes true real soon!
It is fun and funny what some creative people have done and posted on the internet.
Here D, this will make you feel better. Enjoy the laugh as I did.
One of my favs is this one.
And I know many here (this one's for you AV) will like this one
If your not laughing at life, you're not living it right!
As to the pic, I thought a number of you would like it. I started to PM Brett and send it him for a possible avatar but I just didn't think he was as out there on the edge as I am and would do it! In fact Brett was my first thought when I saw it and would be a great follow up to his current one.
I actually did a search for a Bush pic doing the same and I was surprised to not find one. I'm watching the matrix as I write and I see Diesel buying a photoshop program as we speak!
I did find this one however that I do hope comes true real soon!
It is fun and funny what some creative people have done and posted on the internet.
Here D, this will make you feel better. Enjoy the laugh as I did.
One of my favs is this one.
And I know many here (this one's for you AV) will like this one
If your not laughing at life, you're not living it right!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Ringo's Law and the Healthcare System of Doom
I have to say I enjoyed the "Ringo" connection but the piece discusses a number of issues with the larger healthcare issue. It is and has been my belief that this whole plan is not about universal coverage but is in fact consolidation of the industry for the purpose of pushing out competition (free market) for the express benefit of a small powerful cartel or monopoly of private company benefactors who positioned themselves by leveraging their political access and campaign contributions. Follow the money!
In the article and just a teaser as they say you'll find stuff like this:
And at the purple highlighted link above you'll find this from this past Sunday's (8/9/09) New York Times
Drug industry plans $150 million in TV ads to push health care overhaul
Let me ask a question, who do they say was involved in a conspiracy to forment turmoil at Town Hall meetings? Seems to me if there is any potential conspiracy here, it just might be the Obama adminstration, the democrats and the healthcare industry who are not being honest about who's who here and what is really taking place behind the scenes. You see, that birth certificate scam Obama's got you guys out on a snipe hunt for, hard to believe a city boy could get so many on a snipe hunt, the purpose of keeping you from looking elsewhere and this being just one case in point.
We are being "CONNED" folks but then not that the other party has any better ideas so there you go!
I have to say I enjoyed the "Ringo" connection but the piece discusses a number of issues with the larger healthcare issue. It is and has been my belief that this whole plan is not about universal coverage but is in fact consolidation of the industry for the purpose of pushing out competition (free market) for the express benefit of a small powerful cartel or monopoly of private company benefactors who positioned themselves by leveraging their political access and campaign contributions. Follow the money!
In the article and just a teaser as they say you'll find stuff like this:
And at the purple highlighted link above you'll find this from this past Sunday's (8/9/09) New York Times
Not fully disclosed, imagine that!
Drug industry plans $150 million in TV ads to push health care overhaul
Let me ask a question, who do they say was involved in a conspiracy to forment turmoil at Town Hall meetings? Seems to me if there is any potential conspiracy here, it just might be the Obama adminstration, the democrats and the healthcare industry who are not being honest about who's who here and what is really taking place behind the scenes. You see, that birth certificate scam Obama's got you guys out on a snipe hunt for, hard to believe a city boy could get so many on a snipe hunt, the purpose of keeping you from looking elsewhere and this being just one case in point.
We are being "CONNED" folks but then not that the other party has any better ideas so there you go!
klein
Für Meno :)
Here is my solution :
Everybody pays 2% of gross earnings go towards goverment healthcare. 3% for familes.
($5000 gross = $100 mth / $150 for family).
Employees currently receiving private insurance through employment can either decide to stay with it or opt out/in every September.
The difference (apprx $600 mth - $100) of $500 per month shall be paid to the employee if he decides to opt out.
(But he/she may have the right to opt back into private care every September for the following year) - losing the $500 monthly, ofcourse.
2% shall also apply to pensions (to save medicare), even Unemployment and Welfare checks.
Remember, this is just for healthcare services, not medication, or dental.
Employess that opt out of private services, still can pay extra for a medication and dental plan with the employer.
Such a bill should make everybody happy, and it's up to the individual to decide whats best for him/her and thier families.
As for the dug companies, pushing universal healthcare, ofcourse.
If everyone is able to see a doctor without paying him upfront.
Would mean, more cliental , and therefor more perscriptions and medication sold.
Everybody pays 2% of gross earnings go towards goverment healthcare. 3% for familes.
($5000 gross = $100 mth / $150 for family).
Employees currently receiving private insurance through employment can either decide to stay with it or opt out/in every September.
The difference (apprx $600 mth - $100) of $500 per month shall be paid to the employee if he decides to opt out.
(But he/she may have the right to opt back into private care every September for the following year) - losing the $500 monthly, ofcourse.
2% shall also apply to pensions (to save medicare), even Unemployment and Welfare checks.
Remember, this is just for healthcare services, not medication, or dental.
Employess that opt out of private services, still can pay extra for a medication and dental plan with the employer.
Such a bill should make everybody happy, and it's up to the individual to decide whats best for him/her and thier families.
As for the dug companies, pushing universal healthcare, ofcourse.
If everyone is able to see a doctor without paying him upfront.
Would mean, more cliental , and therefor more perscriptions and medication sold.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Here is a better solution.
Allow insurance to be sold across state lines.
Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid including SCHIP. (This would be the largest thing one could do to lower costs.)
Cap lawsuit awards.
If you are going to have an income tax and health insurance is a part of your income you should tax it as well.(This would help drive the cost of insurance down.)
Allow a PA to set up a minor medical treatment facility without doctor supervision.(This would increase the supply of health care driving down costs without driving down quality.)
Remove the requirement for emergency rooms to treat anyone who shows up.
Reduce or eliminate income and social security taxes so the citizens will have the economic freedom to provide for their own health care.(These taxes would not be needed if the government allowed people to provide for their own health care.)
Reduce the burden it takes for drug companies to bring medicine to the market.
Also cap lawsuits for these companies. (Just look at what happened with aviation when the government did this.)
These few minor fixes would dramatically lower costs and at the same time allow the citizens greater access to the health care market. The Government could then work on the more difficult changes.
Allow insurance to be sold across state lines.
Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid including SCHIP. (This would be the largest thing one could do to lower costs.)
Cap lawsuit awards.
If you are going to have an income tax and health insurance is a part of your income you should tax it as well.(This would help drive the cost of insurance down.)
Allow a PA to set up a minor medical treatment facility without doctor supervision.(This would increase the supply of health care driving down costs without driving down quality.)
Remove the requirement for emergency rooms to treat anyone who shows up.
Reduce or eliminate income and social security taxes so the citizens will have the economic freedom to provide for their own health care.(These taxes would not be needed if the government allowed people to provide for their own health care.)
Reduce the burden it takes for drug companies to bring medicine to the market.
Also cap lawsuits for these companies. (Just look at what happened with aviation when the government did this.)
These few minor fixes would dramatically lower costs and at the same time allow the citizens greater access to the health care market. The Government could then work on the more difficult changes.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
they're close but I think the one on the left looks a little saner
LMAO! Good Observation!
This one sez it all
moreluck
golden ticket member
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
http://www.afcm.org/healthcareprinciples.html
"The strongest advocates of medical socialism want Americans to believe that what we have today is a free-market health care system based on principles of laissez-faire capitalism, and that we need to replace it. What we actually have, of course, is an essentially fascist system of highly complex and government-financed health care manipulated by interest groups with political pull. America's health insurance and medical care system is an overregulated, bureaucratic monster that is the creation of government. It is in need of major reform, and the status quo should not be defended. But reform of the system must not take the form of more of the government poison that has been killing it."
"The strongest advocates of medical socialism want Americans to believe that what we have today is a free-market health care system based on principles of laissez-faire capitalism, and that we need to replace it. What we actually have, of course, is an essentially fascist system of highly complex and government-financed health care manipulated by interest groups with political pull. America's health insurance and medical care system is an overregulated, bureaucratic monster that is the creation of government. It is in need of major reform, and the status quo should not be defended. But reform of the system must not take the form of more of the government poison that has been killing it."
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Along those same lines are 2 articles you might also enjoy. The first is from the Washington Examiner by Tim Carney on the fact that the Insurance industry really isn't our friend (those who believe in free market, laissez faire) and IMO Tim did a good job too.
The 2nd is from Hans Hoppe, professor emeritus of economics at UNLV and one of those evil Austrian, anarcho-libertarian anarchist types (God Bless him
) who wrote out his own 4 Step Healthcare Plan of America. I'm not holding my breath that either party will follow it however among and along with many other of his economic ideas, he is dead on the money IMO.BTW AV: Good post and link! Thanks.
Since you are dipping your toe towards the "darkside" and rightly pointing out the illusion of the Free Market in America and one half of the maxium, "Welfare and Warfare are the Health of the State" why not consider also turning over the other head of the 2 headed Leviathan in allowing the free market to answer the nations military needs? If something like healthcare, cars, food, housing, computers, etc. etc. are all available better outside the hands of the state and in the hands of a true free market, then isn't it time we took a hard look using free market principles at the Myth of National Defense?
If you take the position that the State can only provide for the common defense (socialism IMO) then you just opened the door IMO for the otherside to argue the State's position on/in other areas (the other socialism) language of the Constitution be damned!
JM"radical"O of course!
klein
Für Meno :)
Along those same lines are 2 articles you might also enjoy. The first is from the Washington Examiner by Tim Carney on the fact that the Insurance industry really isn't our friend (those who believe in free market, laissez faire) and IMO Tim did a good job too.
The 2nd is from Hans Hoppe, professor emeritus of economics at UNLV and one of those evil Austrian, anarcho-libertarian anarchist types (God Bless him
BTW AV: Good post and link! Thanks.
Since you are dipping your toe towards the "darkside" and rightly pointing out the illusion of the Free Market in America and one half of the maxium, "Welfare and Warfare are the Health of the State" why not consider also turning over the other head of the 2 headed Leviathan in allowing the free market to answer the nations military needs? If something like healthcare, cars, food, housing, computers, etc. etc. are all available better outside the hands of the state and in the hands of a true free market, then isn't it time we took a hard look using free market principles at the Myth of National Defense?
If you take the position that the State can only provide for the common defense (socialism IMO) then you just opened the door IMO for the otherside to argue the State's position on/in other areas (the other socialism) language of the Constitution be damned!
JM"radical"O of course!
Hans Hoppe, same place Hitler came from, he is nuts !
Eliminate Food and Drug, so next time there won't be a samonella scare, or hambuger disease, etc.. since no longer anyone is to control that. Not even the food processing plants ! ( no more food inspectors)
Have new drugs come out daily, with no prior testing... maybe invent the superpill, that you all die of. (Al Q can open up a pharmacy there.)
Don't think so !
Same with getting rid of all medical licences and regulations... Go back to witchdoctors. Sure, can see that being a better system then you have, NOT !
But, as far as insurers go, that artical was dead right on.
They need competition.
Besides, Insurance companies make a fortune and are gangsters in my opinion.
Everyone has dealt with them in one form or another.. car accident, home insurance, etc.
We get ripped off.
Good thing you don't see the paper work doctors have to go thru, to get thier money from insurance companies. A lot of times it's denied, for some reason or another, and they need to fill out more paperwork, to finally receive thier money.
Anyways, I do hope you agree to some new system, that won't go bankrupt like the current one will, if nothing is done.
