Gov healthcare

[TechGrrl]

note: Liberal approach when looking to raise taxes create resentment against those who have money. when looking to socialize health care create resentment against insurance companies charging too much. Liberals tend to use the class warefare concepts to sell their objectives.

There has been class warfare in this country for the last 30 years, and WE LOST!

The top 1/2 of 1% has taken every last dime they can chisel out of their connections and rigged games, and left the rest of us in the dust.

Since you are in UPS management, you may imagine that you are well taken care of. You are not. If you have been smart with your investments, you are probably pretty well off, but you are one bad illness or accident away from bankruptcy if you lose your health insurance. Which, apparently, is starting to look good to the management committee, since the costs continue to skyrocket.

 

[TechGrrl]

This article is required reading:

The Cost Conundrum

I particularly was intrigued by this, for all you 'set the market free and let consumers decide' folks:

"The third class of health-cost proposals, I explained, would push people to use medical savings accounts and hold high-deductible insurance policies: “They’d have more of their own money on the line, and that’d drive them to bargain with you and other surgeons, right?”

He gave me a quizzical look. We tried to imagine the scenario. A cardiologist tells an elderly woman that she needs bypass surgery and has Dr. Dyke see her. They discuss the blockages in her heart, the operation, the risks. And now they’re supposed to haggle over the price as if he were selling a rug in a souk? “I’ll do three vessels for thirty thousand, but if you take four I’ll throw in an extra night in the I.C.U.”—that sort of thing? Dyke shook his head. “Who comes up with this stuff?” he asked. “Any plan that relies on the sheep to negotiate with the wolves is doomed to failure.”"

 

[tieguy]

They can tell us that, but it simply isn't true. It's called LYING.

Read this article:

Tort Reform?

One contributor to the article states:"Tort reform in Texas was supposedly passed to decrease the incentive for people with non-meritous claims to file lawsuits. The real effect however, was to decrease the incentive and the ability of those with meritous claims to file lawsuits. Our courts already have numerous mechanisms in place to dismiss non-meritous cases. There's motions to dismiss, summary judgments, and the contingency-fee agreement, and judges have the ability to issue directed verdicts. Tort reform isn't about cheaper health care, it's about legislating away financial risk to insurers, which exist solely to assume responsibility for that risk. "

Here's another article, near to my heart, since I am stuck with Mitch McConnell and Jim Bunning as my senators:

Tort Reform Doesn't Cut Health Costs

I find this part compelling:

"Boston surgeon Atul Gawande visited McAllen and wrote an account for The New Yorker, "The Conundrum: What a Texas town can teach us about health care" that's required reading for anyone trying to understand this admittedly baffling topic.

One night at dinner with six local doctors he asked why the average cost per Medicare enrollee had soared from $4,891, about the national average in 1992, to almost twice the national average of $15,000 per enrollee in 2006.

For perspective, the per capita income in McAllen is only $12,000.

Several of the physicians said doctors practiced defensive medicine to protect themselves from the city's especially aggressive lawyers; they ordered extra tests and procedures which drive up costs.

But what about the strict limits on malpractice damages. Haven't lawsuits gone down?

"Practically to zero," one of the docs said.

What's finally revealed is that doctors in McAllen are heavily invested in medical technology and imaging and surgery centers. They order lots of tests and procedures because they directly profit from them. They think of what they do as a business."


There are real things we could do to cut health care costs, but cutting off a mechanism which is often the little guy's only recourse against the big guys is not one of them.

Oh ok there are no lawsuits and there are no drug companies overcharging for their product. That takes care of that.

 

[tieguy]

There has been class warfare in this country for the last 30 years, and WE LOST!

The top 1/2 of 1% has taken every last dime they can chisel out of their connections and rigged games, and left the rest of us in the dust.

Since you are in UPS management, you may imagine that you are well taken care of. You are not. If you have been smart with your investments, you are probably pretty well off, but you are one bad illness or accident away from bankruptcy if you lose your health insurance. Which, apparently, is starting to look good to the management committee, since the costs continue to skyrocket.

I did mention the class warfare approach to drive the liberal agenda. did I also mention fearmongering? If I have invested wisely over the years as you guess then I have learned to weigh risk versus reward and make sound decisions in doing so. As such I think I may be able to ascertain the threat of such a decision in my analysis and plan accordingly?

I'm sure a true conservative/libertarian would not subject theirselves to such fearmongering since they would be confident they could succeed regrardless of the possible threats?

 

[wkmac]

Obama on Drugs: 98% Cheney?

About Greg Palast

Scott Horton, libertarian/anarchist/ interviews Greg Palast, an admitted Progressive Air America type on the subject Obama's Big Pharma deal on KAOS-FM and it's a great interview. Greg openly advocates a British style healthcare system but he exposes the Obama plan for what it is. Also some discussion and banter between Scott and Greg about free market verse a more State involved system (Greg admits there is no free market in healthcare now, God bless you Greg ) and overall, no matter where you stand, a great interview to listen too. The best part is that both men presented ideas on healthcare that quite frankly (sadly too) neither are on the table as options in the current public mix. If you get the chance, it's radio format and discussion at it's best IMO, informative and most of all thought provoking.

Scott Horton Interview with Greg Palast

 

[tieguy]

Canadians visit U.S. to get care

Deal lets many go to Michigan hospitals


Dany Mercado, a leukemia patient from Kitchener, Ontario, is cancer-free after getting a bone marrow transplant at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute in Detroit.


Told by Canadian doctors in 2007 he couldn't have the procedure there, Mercado's family and doctor appealed to Ontario health officials, who agreed to let him have the transplant in Detroit in January 2008.

wow Klien did you see this posting. How can this happen in such a superior society up north?

 

[klein]

wow Klien did you see this posting. How can this happen in such a superior society up north?

Oh stop it. Michigan also gets all of Torontos garbage (really, it gets sent south, the trash they have every day).

It's sad to see Ontario doesn't have the resouces to provide more medical staff and hospitals.
You got to remember, our goverment Healthcare is only roughly 20% funded. The rest is up to the provinces to make up 80% each.

But, it's hard to keep up. The US does hire (steal) tons of Canadian Doctors, and Nurses. So, even if Ontario built a new facilitly it would be hard to find the heatlhcare workers.
So, I guess, for now, it's just cheaper to send them south. And it's still free for the Canadian.
And, I bet they made a better deal then any insurance company in the US has done.

It's also, if you wanna say, part of free trade, you buy things from us, we buy things from you.
In this case it's medicare, oh well.
You also need to remember, that Michigan is just over the bridge, very close by.
They could probably get thier bonenarrow here, in Alberta, but 3000 miles away, wouldn't make sense either.

 

[tieguy]

Oh stop it. Michigan also gets all of Torontos garbage (really, it gets sent south, the trash they have every day).

It's sad to see Ontario doesn't have the resouces to provide more medical staff and hospitals.
You got to remember, our goverment Healthcare is only roughly 20% funded. The rest is up to the provinces to make up 80% each.

But, it's hard to keep up. The US does hire (steal) tons of Canadian Doctors, and Nurses. So, even if Ontario built a new facilitly it would be hard to find the heatlhcare workers.
So, I guess, for now, it's just cheaper to send them south. And it's still free for the Canadian.
And, I bet they made a better deal then any insurance company in the US has done.

It's also, if you wanna say, part of free trade, you buy things from us, we buy things from you.
In this case it's medicare, oh well.
You also need to remember, that Michigan is just over the bridge, very close by.
They could probably get thier bonenarrow here, in Alberta, but 3000 miles away, wouldn't make sense either.

hmmmmm.... looks like someone may be engaging in a little tap dance routine?

So if I hear you correctly and I think I do then the system may have some flaws to it?

I do appreciate the lesson on financing your system the theft of doctors and nurses from those nasty americans but I think we still need to discuss a fundamental part of that post.

Leukemia patient seeks health care in michigan that was denied him in canada. Why would canada possible deny the patient a cancer patient at that,the health care he needed?

 

[fact check]

hmmmmm.... looks like someone may be engaging in a little tap dance routine?

So if I hear you correctly and I think I do then the system may have some flaws to it?

I do appreciate the lesson on financing your system the theft of doctors and nurses from those nasty americans but I think we still need to discuss a fundamental part of that post.

Leukemia patient seeks health care in michigan that was denied him in canada. Why would canada possible deny the patient a cancer patient at that,the health care he needed?

The Canadian system partners with Michigan hospitals. The Canadian system paid for it.

Read the article.

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry."

Also

"No plan currently under discussion in Congress calls for a universal plan like Canada's, but opponents fear socialized medicine, anyway."

"But Dr. Uwe Reinhardt, a Princeton University health economist who has studied the U.S. and Canadian health systems, said arrangements with cities like Detroit "are a terrific way to manage capacity" given Canada's smaller health care budget.

"This is efficient," he said. "At least in Canada, you don't worry about going broke to pay for health care. You do here.""

 

[klein]

The Canadian system partners with Michigan hospitals. The Canadian system paid for it.

Read the article.

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry." Vujovich said the U.S. backup doesn't show a gap in Canada's system, but shows how it works.


Also
"No plan currently under discussion in Congress calls for a universal plan like Canada's, but opponents fear socialized medicine, anyway."

"But Dr. Uwe Reinhardt, a Princeton University health economist who has studied the U.S. and Canadian health systems, said arrangements with cities like Detroit "are a terrific way to manage capacity" given Canada's smaller health care budget.

"This is efficient," he said. "At least in Canada, you don't worry about going broke to pay for health care. You do here.""

added to that fact check.


Besides, why the other person got denied, I do not know, nor does it tell.
He could be an illegal citizen, who knows ?

Other Boarder cities are Vancouver - Seattle.
And, like I said, it's mostly up to the province, to set up thier healthcare system.
British Columbia seems to do it better then Ontario.
I have not heard of Vancoverites going to Seattle for care.

In Alberta we don't have that problem either. We just built the the largest and most modern cancer treatment hospital in Canada, and one of the best in the world (comparable to the majo clinic), even hired the best specialist from overseas, europe and the states.

I know I'm in good care here. Thats what matters, and so is everybody else living here. Even Ontario, even if they need to treat them in Michigan, it's still paid for, and that's what matters.

 

[tieguy]

added to that fact check.


Besides, why the other person got denied, I do not know, nor does it tell.
He could be an illegal citizen, who knows ?

Other Boarder cities are Vancouver - Seattle.
And, like I said, it's mostly up to the province, to set up thier healthcare system.
British Columbia seems to do it better then Ontario.
I have not heard of Vancoverites going to Seattle for care.

In Alberta we don't have that problem either. We just built the the largest and most modern cancer treatment hospital in Canada, and one of the best in the world (comparable to the majo clinic), even hired the best specialist from overseas, europe and the states.

I know I'm in good care here. Thats what matters, and so is everybody else living here. Even Ontario, even if they need to treat them in Michigan, it's still paid for, and that's what matters.

I'm not sure how you could say that you have good care if you have to go out of country to get treatments denied you in your own country.We're not talking about a hang nail here the guy had leukemia.

 

[klein]

I'm not sure how you could say that you have good care if you have to go out of country to get treatments denied you in your own country.We're not talking about a hang nail here the guy had leukemia.

Tell me why he got denied, and then we'll talk. Was he even Canadian ?
He lived in Canada, but that doesn't say much.

 

[tieguy]

Tell me why he got denied, and then we'll talk. Was he even Canadian ?
He lived in Canada, but that doesn't say much.

I don't know any way to tell you this but I won't live or die by whether we talk or not. You're the one here bragging about the superior health care system you have in Canada.

Now here we have a situation where a guy has a life threatening situation and is denied treatment needed by his health insurance provider your highly touted system. He then has to travel out of country to get the treatment he needed to save his life. The fact that the canadians paid for it is wonderful. The denial of life saving service and his having to travel out of country very disturbing and one reason americans are leery of adopting a similar system.

Lucy you got some splainin to do.

 

[Jones]

He wasn't "denied treatment" in Canada, that's just the spin that the freeper article put on the story(no surprise if you know anything about freep). He couldn't locate a good bone marrow match in Canada, in large part because he's hispanic. He went to Michigan because they found a match in the US bone marrow registry, and the Canadian health care system agreed to let him have the operation in Detroit. They also paid $200,000.00 to cover the cost of the operation.

 

[klein]

I don't know any way to tell you this but I won't live or die by whether we talk or not. You're the one here bragging about the superior health care system you have in Canada.

Now here we have a situation where a guy has a life threatening situation and is denied treatment needed by his health insurance provider your highly touted system. He then has to travel out of country to get the treatment he needed to save his life. The fact that the canadians paid for it is wonderful. The denial of life saving service and his having to travel out of country very disturbing and one reason americans are leery of adopting a similar system.

Lucy you got some splainin to do.

I understand that, and yes, it's not acceptable, but I still don't know why he got denied.
Don't tell me some of your insurance companies, don't deny a procedure.
And if he had to "travel" more like going over the bridge, to get it done, thats sad for me to hear, too.
But, I don't know his case.
It would be totally rare in Alberta, I know that.
Ask DS, he's from Ontario, he would know more.

 

[tieguy]

I understand that, and yes, it's not acceptable, but I still don't know why he got denied.
Don't tell me some of your insurance companies, don't deny a procedure.
And if he had to "travel" more like going over the bridge, to get it done, thats sad for me to hear, too.
But, I don't know his case.
It would be totally rare in Alberta, I know that.
Ask DS, he's from Ontario, he would know more.

Awe comon Klien , you're the one selling canadian health care here likes its the holy grail.

 

[wkmac]

You certainly bring up some interesting points to discuss. Having read through these articles, I can agree with some of the points, but not others.

FREX, I can't accept not licensing health care professionals. In a small community, it is possible to know your neighbors, and know whether they are competent or not. In a complex society such as ours, that is impossible. So licensing of doctors, while stipulating that there is a bit of controlling supply going on, is necessary in order to insure a minimal level of quality. Otherwise the death toll is too high. How would I, in a practical way, be able to choose a doctor absent licensing requirements? I have no way to evaluate them myself. And if you suggest that there be some review mechanism set up to report on the success or failure of doctors, you simply create the trust problem all over again. We have such mechanisms today, and still the incompetents sneak through the cracks.

The current system is totally dysfunctional, and unsustainable as well. The health insurance companies are leeches on the body politic, and unlike SMART parasites, are unconcerned about the health of their host. They are following the 'greed is good', 'I'm getting mine and devil take the hindmost' model of Wall Street, not seeing the cliff they are driving the American economy over.

From your libertarian side and a healthy oppostion to corp. manipulation of the gov't space, maybe it's time you reconsider the myth of worshipping Moloch!

Moloch: Mass Production Industry as a Statist Construct

Then consider the reasons we use to hold onto Slavery for so long are the same ones used to defend Big Government!

 

[klein]

Awe comon Klien , you're the one selling canadian health care here likes its the holy grail.

Every Canadian will agree with you, our system isn't perfect.
I actually kinda preferred the german system better, while living and working there. But, the personal cost (off your monthly pay check was about $200 , back in 1987) tons !
Here it was only $30.00 (if the company you worked for didn't pay it).

I had my illnesses, been hospitized 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 1 week, 1 night, etc.
So far, I have not found a huge flaw in our system.
They treated me almost like gold when I got diagnosed for diabitis. Did every single examination they could think of, that no other damage was done to my body, because they didn't know how long I have had it.

You just got to think, are you (as a nation), getting your money worth ?
Paying twice the amount, any other country pays for 100% of thier citizens, and you only get 70% of the population covered.

If you take that into fact, your paying tripple, then any other healthcare system in the world.
Even if you have that awesome UPS medical card... you still have to make up for $6000.00 that your goverment spends extra per person, per year, there.
That doesn't seem to worry you though.
You have wife and 2 kids, thats $24.000 somehow, the goverment needs to take from you, or someone else!

 

[1989]

So what exactly is affordable health care (for the individual or family)? Has this been defined yet? $100: $300: $500: $700 a month?

 

[TechGrrl]

I'm sure a true conservative/libertarian would not subject theirselves to such fearmongering since they would be confident they could succeed regrardless of the possible threats?

I am not at all confident that anyone who is not one of the top tier elite can succeed at anything when success is rigged to insure that the insiders reap all the benefits, and the rest of us get to pay off the costs. The critical point to understand is that the 'big boys' have socialized risk while privatizing reward. It's "Heads they win, tails we lose." Sorry if you can't look at what has happened in the last 30 years and see the steady erosion of any opportunity for working class kids to make serious gains.

When I started with UPS in 1974, I was a college student working for books and beans. My paycheck was good enough to allow me to pay all my tuition and bills at a decent private university on 25 hours of work a week.

Now? Fat chance. Most kids couldn't pay for tuition at a state run school on 25 hours of work a week. My background is blue collar working class. I'm a fiscal conservative, but I guess I am a social liberal. If it weren't for my support, my niece and nephew could never have made enough money to get a good schooling on what jobs are available today.

I read Ayn Rand a lot, and much of what she says makes sense, but in practice in today's world, the little guys gets screwed on a regular basis, and there is nothing they can do about it.

Except vote for people who believe that spending money on sending people to college and community colleges and technical schools is an investment, not a deficit. It's called 'return on investment' when people are able to raise themselves up and pay taxes on their higher incomes.