guns
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
dilligaf
IN VINO VERITAS
Sober, I understand what you mean here and heaven help me for doing this but this in not exactly what Klein said. (I think I'm going to have a heart attack). There are NUTS in every sect and to rule them out of NRA just because it's the NRA is not clear thinking. It would not surprise me in the least to find some NRA members that have this type of mentality. They are every where and they breed.
klein
Für Meno :)
Alcohol was banned nationwide (were guns ever) ?
It's illegal to purchase or drink alcohol under the age of 21 in the US, but guns can be purchased by a 16 year old or younger in some states.
Some parents teach their kids how to shoot a gun even at an earlier age (is that the same with drinking alcohol) ?
A lot of Americans think more guns equals more safety and crime prevention, of course not so with alcohol.
And as long as Americans think that more gun ownership prevents crime, we'll see a lot more of these mass shootings, be it in school, workforce, or just for the hell of it, like in Tuscon, AZ.
Sober,
I am happy to answer. I do not support alcohol, bars, hard liquor or liquor stores. Since there creation, alcohol has harmed this country in many ways. Alcohol was used to weaken the indians of this country to the point where 90% of all indians on reservations are alcoholics. Alcohol has killed thousands of teens, thousands of adults, thousands of hard working americans who are the victims of alcoholics who never seek treatment or accept that they are alcoholics.
I dont patronize liquor stores for anything and cheer when I see one close. Alcohol has never been a part of my life other than the time I was hit by a drunk driver in 1981. I suffered serious injuries and it took 5 years to end that case. The drunk was a three time convicted drunk driver who was just released driving without a license when he hit me. Since then, I have hated alcohol as much as guns.
Both GUNS and ALCOHOL are the biggest threats to this country. More than terrorists. Al Qaeda has killed 3000 civilians in terror attacks and guns and alcohol has killed millions.
If you throw in cigarettes, that number doubles.
I would like to see alcohol banned at stadiums, concerts and racetracks. I dont think its a part of any sport to be drunk while watching. Kinda defeats the purpose of watching if someone is in a altered state and cant comprehend whats going on only to end up stumbling out of a ballpark acting like a fool and possibly getting into a fight with someone who isnt drunk, Its the same story at all ballparks, and it makes people like me not want to go to a game. The last thing I want to be near, see or interact with is a DRUNK.
With respect to this school shooting, why is it that gun owners like yourself dont condemn the parents for owning guns and leaving them out where a troubled child who was already in a "continuation" school because of troubles, could get them with ease, along with the ammo, and then go to a high school where he was NOT A STUDENT and shoot up innocent students who had nothing to do with him?
Why are the gun OWNERS left out of the conversation? Why is the conversation only limited to the shooter and not the circumstances on how he obtained the weapons and ammo?
Ill tell you why.
Its because GUN owners FEAR that legislation and regulation will come out of it. Like MANDATORY locking up of weapons, trigger locks, separation of ammo. Thats why in school shootings, the GUN is left out and the focus changed to the victims.
Someone on this board made a claim that they sleep with a gun under their pillow, and if they had children, and one of those children was troubled and placed in a "continuation" school for troubled youth, then that gun is ripe for a tragedy.
As in this case, this kid was kicked out of the high school he shot up and placed in a continuation school for troubled kids, He had anger issues and most likely placed blame on students of that high school for his problems. His parents made it easy for him to settle his grievances by having guns in the first place. GUNS that were probably purchased under the auspices of self protection and owned because of the percieved second amendment rights. But as in the majority of cases, those guns purchased for self protection ended up taking the lives of innocent people.
GUNS only create victims, not heros.
I am sure this kids home life was no picnic. It will be interesting to see if this kids home life included alcoholic parents and discourse between his parents. It usually is the case.
There are alot more people who hate guns than myself, its just on this board where my position is in the minority. I can deal with that. It doesnt mean the rest of you are correct, it just means that there is an opposition to the majority.
I hate guns as ive said many times. I will never believe that we need to live like the taliban, or the people of iraq walking around with rifles and such just to live.
This isnt my america.
Peace.
TOS
klein
Für Meno :)
Really ?
Because it works in other countries pretty well.
There got to be a reason why Americans have the highest number of gun ownership in the world and 1 of the highest shootings of people, too.
moreluck
golden ticket member
Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.
False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures.
In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel “have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.” A
comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.
http://haltingarkansasliberalswitht...elation-between-gun-control-and-murder-rates/
20% of U.S. Violent Crime occurs in 4 cities: New York, Chicago, Washington D.C., & Detroit. These cities have near prohibition laws regarding handgun ownership.
1976- Washington, D.C. enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Effect: Murder has risen 134%while the national murder rate has dropped 2%
.
New York City - Up 15% between 1998 and 1999. The SAME timeframe that new handgun restrictions came into effect.
In 1986, Florida Adopted the Right-To-Carry law, allowing citizens to carry firearms. The results from 1987-1996:
Homicide Rate: DECREASED 36%
Homicide by Firearm: DECREASED 37%
Homicide by Handgun: DECREASED 41%
moreluck
golden ticket member
So explain Switzerland?
klein
Für Meno :)
Want me to ?
I been to Switzerland about 4-5 times. Zurich alone 3 times.
They are well educated and well mannered people there. Most speak atleast 3 languages.
And, it's not as easy as you think it is.
A 3 hr course won't get you a gun license.
Hell, you need first aid just to get a drivers license there. I assume it's the minimum to get a gun, too.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Isn't it mandatory to own a firearm until you reach age 30 there? I don't remember exactly but they do have some sort of mandatory firearm ownership thing going.
There are towns in America that have had a zero murder rate for longer than five years making your border argument a fallacy.
klein
Für Meno :)
Windsor isn't a town ! Please name me 1 single American city !
As far as I know, it's not mandatory to have a gun in Switzerland, but army draft is still in place and they keep the gun after their service.
But, just like in Germany, people can refuse the madatory draft if they hate war and guns, and instead serve the time in Social services, hospitals, etc.
And others are just disabled enough not to take part in any of the above.
Windsor is one of Canada's major automobile manufacturing centres. The city is home to the headquarters of Chrysler Canada. Automotive facilities include the Chrysler minivan assembly plant and two Ford Motor Company engine plants.
As far as I know, it's not mandatory to have a gun in Switzerland, but army draft is still in place and they keep the gun after their service.
But, just like in Germany, people can refuse the madatory draft if they hate war and guns, and instead serve the time in Social services, hospitals, etc.
And others are just disabled enough not to take part in any of the above.
Windsor is one of Canada's major automobile manufacturing centres. The city is home to the headquarters of Chrysler Canada. Automotive facilities include the Chrysler minivan assembly plant and two Ford Motor Company engine plants.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
TOS,
Was it the alcohol that has devastated the American Indian population or is it the reservation system (American Apartheid) that put the American Indian in such a destructive condition to begin with and like any other human being, the alcohol serves as a means of mental escape so they aren't reminded of their prison conditions?
BTW: Where is Obama and the democrat party at in ending this kind of cruelty instead of through gov't programming of perpetuating it?
Why don't Obama start by pardoning Leonard Peltier? Why not apologize for Wounded Knee and especially for the gov't caused disaster at Oglala?
Was it the alcohol that has devastated the American Indian population or is it the reservation system (American Apartheid) that put the American Indian in such a destructive condition to begin with and like any other human being, the alcohol serves as a means of mental escape so they aren't reminded of their prison conditions?
BTW: Where is Obama and the democrat party at in ending this kind of cruelty instead of through gov't programming of perpetuating it?
Why don't Obama start by pardoning Leonard Peltier? Why not apologize for Wounded Knee and especially for the gov't caused disaster at Oglala?
Finding a way to incapacitate the indians was part of the genocide of the race. The reservation system was only the means to corral the indians and concentrate the destruction of the american indian was done behind walls in order to HIDE it from the populace. Getting the american indian hooked on drugs and alcohol was a simple way of getting the indians to "self destruct" within the reservations and eliminate blame from the new white america.
America should apologize to the indians for what was done to a thriving nation. As people today condemn countries like uganda, nigeria, somalia and sudan for mass killings of tribes people, those same people forget that this country did the same to millions of american indians.
Only recently has the american indian nation begin to attempt to get its people off of alcohol and drugs. The indian nation is rising once again and becoming self supportive but has a long way to go.
As far as Peltier is concerned, I dont know enough about the facts of his murder conviction to make a determination. If the witnesses against him testified falsely, then maybe he should get a retrial.
In the case of this teen shooter, he came from a troubled household as I suspected. A violent family that was armed. Violence spawns violence. Alcoholic parents makes it even worse.
No matter what the facts, the issue will still never be the GUN and all distractions will be to get the focus off the GUN. Today for example, FOX NEWS only alternative story on the shooting involved whether or not students should be allowed to pray on campus for the victims, but not one mention of the GUN involved.
How does prayer outrank the importance of the GUN?
Peace.
TOS
wkmac
Well-Known Member
As to the native Americans, when I see Gaza or the old SA apartheid system, I see the efforts of the American gov't in alliance with business and railroad interests to eradicate the plains indians from North America. When I see Africa, I see very much the same thing at play. It's all like a bad slasher movie getting played over and over again and we're just not smart enough to get up and walk out of the theater after first putting a bullet in the film projector.
As to the sad events in Ohio, here's my take and it's likely not going to set well with many folks and if that's the case, well let's just say the mods will delete it so you know what I'm thinking!
A few weeks ago a man stood before a crowd and suggested we treat people by means of the golden rule. As a result he was met with a rousing chorus of boos not unlike a crowd yelling, "Give Us Barabbas!" Now it's been said that the tragic event in Ohio was caused by too many guns, some say there was a lack of security and still others would say that not enough money was allocated to the schools. But all of that is like a new coat of paint upon a house whose very foundation has been eaten away by voracious termites. It may look pretty for the moment but in the end the house will still collapse.
But I say you can have all the guns in the world laying there, no security at all or even little to no funds but had that town and it's people followed to the best they could that crazy old man and his golden rule idea, none of those events from the other day, in fact the events leading up to the cause would have never happened to begin with. This country is driven by a psychology of violence, aggression and brute force and no amount of laws, no amount of restrictions from the means of violence will ultimately stop the problem at it's roots. Until we learn that to force another human being to your will regardless of it's motive or intent is wrong, then the events in Ohio will only get worse and more numerous.
The fact is what we've done to our own people, what we've done to others across the planet, our own children are seeing this and when it suits them they act out in the same way to serve their own interests. To quote another man who said it best:
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
TOS,
At this point, we dont yet have any FACTS as to where the shooter obtained the gun. We only have your fear and hate driven ASSUMPTIONS.
Your ASSUMPTION that the shooter lives with his parents is apparently incorrect, the news report I read said that he lives with a grandparent who is also his legal guardian. This would seem to indicate troubles in the home. I will AGREE with you that any adult who leaves an unsecured firearm where a mentally disturbed teenager can access it is grossly and perhaps even criminally negligent...but at this point we dont KNOW whether that is the case here or not. So rather than jumping to grossly inacurate and bigoted conclusions, I will avoid condemning anybody until I have some FACTS to work with.
Peace.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Because intelligent people who rationally analyze the situation rather than hysterically reacting to it know what the FACTS are.
The FACTS....are that a disturbed person who makes an intentional and PREMEDITATED decision to go shoot up a school and murder people is going to find a way to obtain a gun no matter WHAT sort of warm and fuzzy "feel good" laws are put in place about storage, trigger locks etc.
There are an estimated 300 million guns owned in this country. They arent going to go away. If a criminal...or a mentally disturbed teenager....wants one badly enough, he will get one. So rather than wasting time advocating for yet MORE worthless laws and rules and restrictions, we as a society ought to be asking WHY these kids are making the choices that they are making in the first place.
If the "easy availability" of guns is to blame for school shootings, why werent they happening in the 1940's or 50's when there were FAR FEWER gun laws and restrictions in place than there are today? In the 40's and 50's there was NO SUCH THING as "background checks" or "waiting periods". You could buy guns at any hardware store. You could buy them at Sears or JC Pennys or even the local flea market.
My father was a member of his high school's RIFLE TEAM in 1958. He and his teammates brought their .22 target rifles to school ON THE BUS with them on match days and left them in the closet in the principals office until after school when the bus would then take them and their rifles to the local National Guard armory where the matches were held. School shootings? UNHEARD OF.
When I went to high school in the early 80's in rural Oregon, it was quite common during hunting season to see deer rifles in the gun racks of pickups that were driven to school by students. We would go hunting in the evenings after school. I had my own deer rifle at the age of 15, as did many of my friends. Guns were easily available. School shootings? UNHEARD OF.
It is a waste of time to ask HOW. HOW is the easy part. What we NEED to ask as a society.... is WHY.
Peace
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
When a person makes a decision to get drunk and drive, and then gets into an accident and kills someone....the issue is not the CAR that he used or what brand of BEER he drank. The issue...is WHY he made the choice to drive in the first place. The CAR and the BEER...much like the GUN...are inantimate objects and a person who makes a DECISION to misuse these objects will do so whether his DECISION is legal or not.
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