He said, she said Termination

[GeorgiaBrown]

Chopstic,

I did that as well and brought it up at the local hearing..... the Division HR Manager laughed and said is that going to be your defense at the panel.... he wrote down the definition in his legal pad just as you have stated....after I said that he asked me when I looked it up and why I looked it up..... I told him "because I wanted to know what the legal definition of holiday was".....and to answer his question about when I said "Yesterday"....... then he went on to say "So you only cared about the legal definition because you got into trouble?" and "You looked it up to prepare for this hearing?".....guess I should have left that out.... but my curiosity got the best of me.......... and before anybody says it..... I know I don't work for Webster's Dictionary....

 

[brownmonster]

If you sheeted it as CLO1 and left a note, the customer could still call and say you left no note and made no attempt. You could then be accused of scanning the note in the car and discarding it. None of the technology this company uses is designed to find a driver innocent, only guilty. Good Luck.

 

[The Other Side]

Tieguy and Otherside,

" Yes the stop was always closed that day and the way that I knew it was closed is because I read the sign on the door after I took the package to the door and tried to gain entry. This is not hard to understand. "

I am not having trouble understanding this element of your argument. I am having trouble understanding your logic. How is it that you made a DECISION to sheet a package incorrectly and further that mistake by not leaving a note. Even if the customer was closed and they were to return the next day (sat) how would the customer know to contact ups for the package?

By your own description, you claim you did all the elements of a regular delivery up to grabbing the door knob, yet you stop at that point and do everything else wrong? Why not continue by scanning a note, completing the note with the required info and then sheet the pkg as clo 1 since you made a legit delivery attempt?

How you separate yourself from having to do the job correctly is what bothers me about your case. The clo H code was never intended to be used in this fashion.

We as drivers have no right to change the policies of the company pertaining to deliveries and we are only allowed to perform our duties in the best interests of the COMPANY, not you. This is in the contract (article 37 national master). If the place is closed, its closed. We sheet as closed unless its a major holiday.

Second part to that.......I was not aware that no credit was given for sheeting a package as CLOH..... If I had been aware that I have been cheating myself out of time all of these years I certainly would have been more reluctant to have done so.....(notice the word reluctant, that means I had no question in my mind that sheeting packages CLOH was any attempt at dishonesty) I am not sure that you are correct on this either....When I sheet a package a CLOH my stop count increases and the piece(s) go into my tally for the days work....not like when a package is sheeted as Missed for instance.

Hopefully, in your many years at UPS you have learned that there are different codes for many things, and each code has its own "time value". CLOH does not have the same time value as a clo 1. This is why it exists. UPS knows not to give full credit to a driver who will sit in one position and sheet all businesses closed the day after thanksgiving for example when they know the driver is NOT going to each business. If you have been using this code and others are following your example, then you all are cheating yourselves out of time.

The relevant issue here is why you chose not to complete the stop as required by policy. A legitimate note, a legitimate closure record

As one final thought.... try looking at the whole CLOH vs CLO1 situation like this..... try the customers perspective.... that is what we are supposed to be about right?..... the customer maintains a schedule which only has them working 3,4 days of what we consider a normal work week. They work days (Saturday, Sunday) which we do not...regardless of whether I sheet the package as CLO1, CLOH, CAN'T GET OFF THE CRAPPER, OR WHATEVER DESIGNATION YOU CHOOSE that does not mean the customer is going to be open to receive the package (with the disputed exception of this one case, which ain't bad considersing how many I have sheeted this way over the last five plus years) maybe UPS should have a option called CLOWEEKEND because regardless of what UPS wants to call it that is what it is for the customer and the closest option available to me to describe what the circumstances are is CLOH.....so if anything I guess I am guilty of super honesty.... and God forbid we don't want any of that going on around here.....

Again, this is what bothers me, your refusal to accept that you did anything wrong. Maybe this is what the division manager sees as well. Your multitude of excuses shows no remorse for the inconvenience to the company and the customer.

What you are GUILTY of is simple. You FAILED to do the job correctly.

There is an saying I use in many situations at UPS and I'm going to use it on you.

"explainations dont excuse and excuses dont explain"

We as drivers know what is expected from us when we make delivery attempts.

1) properly record all packages.
2) indirect when possible.
3) leave notices after scanning.
4) give all packages the level of importance they deserve.

Our work week is simple. Monday thru friday. It makes no difference what schedule the customer works, if its closed, its closed.

Please accept that you made a serious error and affected a customer. Agree to modify your actions in the future and agree to follow company guidelines to the letter, you then should be able to finish your career at UPS.

However, if you chose to continue to make excuses, then good luck at panel which by the way is known as the DEADLOCK system.

Maybe next year your case will be heard.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

If you sheeted it as CLO1 and left a note, the customer could still call and say you left no note and made no attempt. You could then be accused of scanning the note in the car and discarding it. None of the technology this company uses is designed to find a driver innocent, only guilty. Good Luck.

You ain't kidding. It's guilty until proven innocent with the added, let's drag our feet until he/she begs for their job back without backpay.

 

[Mike23]

Chopstic,

I did that as well and brought it up at the local hearing..... the Division HR Manager laughed and said is that going to be your defense at the panel.... he wrote down the definition in his legal pad just as you have stated....after I said that he asked me when I looked it up and why I looked it up..... I told him "because I wanted to know what the legal definition of holiday was".....and to answer his question about when I said "Yesterday"....... then he went on to say "So you only cared about the legal definition because you got into trouble?" and "You looked it up to prepare for this hearing?".....guess I should have left that out.... but my curiosity got the best of me.......... and before anybody says it..... I know I don't work for Webster's Dictionary....

Geez, even HR is crapping all over you? I guess 'human resources' only works for management in your area. They really should change that to MR (management resources...or management rats if you will).

If you happen to have a digital camera (or borrow one), Georgia, go to the stop on that day at the time you went before. Usually digital cameras now have the ability to make a short movie. Get someone to film you pulling the door handle as hard as you possibly can to prove the point their closed at that time.

If they're arguing over the definition of CloH and Clo1 ask them to define it for you and ask them for proof of their definition. After all, it needs to be written down someplace? If they claim all holidays are written down on OUR holiday schedule, well that's right they are on OUR holiday schedule but that doesn't include OTHER peoples holidays. After all, Ramadon (or whatever that holiday is called) isn't a holiday for UPS but is for MANY of our customers. If we're in 'customer service' Are we to discriminate against other peoples beliefs now? Wow, good call UPS!

Also, if they're claiming the GPS info is now destroyed, ask for a copy of theirs? If you haven't seen it then chances are they don't have it otherwise they gotta produce it is my understanding?

I'd also try to leave out all communication with UPS unless it's through your BA or if they're with you (if you trust your BA)...That's just my opinion though. I have a sneaking suspicion whatever you tell any manager it's going to be brought up at the hearings regardless if it's supposed to be confidential or not between you and the HR guy. I've found, in my very limited time, confidentiality is VERY flexable between managers.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

This whole situations is bull####! The only person that should be fired is the person that deleted your information from the delivery report. That was the only blatant case of dishonesty and falsifying information. All you did was make a delivery attempt and sheet the package(s) as CLH so that the customer wouldn't lose one of three attempts. Isn't that the same as "known closed"? Management needs to look at the intent of your actions. In no way did was that an attempt at defrauding the company.

 

[browned out]

Has anyone ever been to the panel and what were your experiences like dealing with it?

I have been to the local panel and did not get my job back; the same as you. At the next panel; I got my job back. I would hope this is what happens with you. UPS makes money by having a lower seniority person working while you are off. Hopefully your file is not too thick. The union and ups will basically barter on who they want to keep and who they let go at the 2nd or 3rd hearings.

Don't be combative; no back pay demands, nothing but sorry my mistake.

cya is right from now on

good luck

 

[browned out]

I have been to the local panel and did not get my job back; the same as you. At the next panel; I got my job back. I would hope this is what happens with you. UPS makes money by having a lower seniority person working while you are off. Hopefully your file is not too thick. The union and ups will basically barter on who they want to keep and who they let go at the 2nd or 3rd hearings.

Don't be combative; no back pay demands, nothing but sorry my mistake.

cya is right from now on

good luck

another thing if they don't want us to use closedH why don't they take it out of the board except for the major holiday days. we can not use closed other other and they finally took this option out of our board. the same thing with late air reason customer request late it is no longer an option in our diads.

A big pile of brown.

I recall times being called in to work and got to the center at 11:00 am and my board had the first stop nda already put in and center manager told me not to touch my board til after I del stop. So this nda was del at 11:15 and shows up not late in diad.

Dishonesty only matters if you are not wearing a tie' sometimes.

 

[rocket man]

21 years and you are asking your fate on this? You must be one hell of a union member . you couldnt have been out for you self all these years. OR COULD YOU./?

 

[Dustyroads]

The whole issue of whether you used cloH or clo1 is just petty and stupid. If there was a problem with your using the cloH, why didn't your supervisor advise you that you were in error and retrain you on the proper procedure? If there is a blame to be placed, it lies directly on your immediate supervisor for not training you correctly in the first place, and for not retraining you when he discovered that you were not correctly trained on this procedure.

It's all smoke and mirrors. Used to be, in our center, closed schools, doctors and dentist offices, etc., were sheeted as "futures". That's what we were instructed. The management team liked that insofar as the packages did not show up on a report as a send again, although, obviously they were. Then, at the morning meeting, they announced NO MORE FUTURES. Except maybe during spring break.

This is such a good example of poor management. It's not even a question of cloH or clo1, they are just irritated because the customer called a national complaint. So, they are punishing you. The real thing you are being accused of is not being outside of that building and checking the door to see if they were open. They have the technology to determine if you were, in fact, at that location. They chose not to use that information.

The sad part is the huge loss of time and money that the company initiates by the disciplinary procedure that they chose for you. Lots of management time is lost plotting and planning your termination, challenging your defense of your actions, and ultimately resolving the issue. If they have nothing better than this to do with their time, I think we need to look at cuts in staff at the management level.

This is a petty little issue, blown out of porportion by someone with a small mind and too much authority. Let's get on with the business of delivering packages to our customers in a timely fashion.

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

To all,

I went out and met with the BA on my route yesterday and we went and visited the customer in question....

I showed the BA where I stopped to make the delivery, showed him the door I used and described the conditions that day... then we went inside and spoke with the customer...

Only one lady on staff yesterday, she was not the lady who was looking for the package that day.... she was dumbfounded when she learned that I had been terminated for this.... she was on the verge of crying.....she said and I quote "I told the manager who came out here that I did not want anything to happen to the driver (me) for this" she went on to say "She told me nothing would happen" that she "only wanted to get the facts of the situation"....

Come to find out...... some interesting facts.

1) Customer did not stay at the location all day as described by UPS management (they left location around mid-morning and returned around 11:30) If you recall I made the attempt at 11:52

2) Customers were having lunch in a back room (keep in mind this building is nearly 200 years old, heavy thick wooden doors and solid stacked stone and mortar interior walls) around the time period 11:45 to 12:45.........(I parked on the street which is at the front of the building)

3) The most important facts.....A) When the customers left that morning they used the side door to get to the parking lot and their vehicle... they locked all doors (including the one I tried, the front door) When they returned at 11:30 the customer said there is a possibility that they forgot to unlock the front door.....The customer told me and the BA that they told my manager this when she was interviewed by UPS....B) The customer said they have been having problems for months with the front door handle sticking and not being able to turn....have had numberous people think they were closed during posted open days because of this.... (she told my manager this as well) and as a follow up they had a newly posted sign on the front door (which I took a picture of) that says "While this door's handle is being repaired please use the side door" ........The BA was very pleased with the results of this visit and as we left the location he said "I think it's obvious UPS has been out on a witchhunt here".....

And as a final thought........

The BA told me the Division Manager (who personally hates me apparently) revealed to center manager, who subsequently told the BA "I see in his (mine) GPS information that he was at the location but I don't believe he even got out of the car"!!!!!!!!! and this after I was told they did not have the GPS information!!

What a crock of #$%$^^%&

 

[Dustyroads]

Hmmmm...why am I not surprised. The house of cards collapses.

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Mike23,

In our building the Division HR Manager is the guy UPS has tapped to handle panel hearings.... I suppose it is because he has shown the talent for ripping hourlies a new A-hole....he is a complete terror..... demands only yes or no answers and really, really, really tries to get you to lose your cool and say something stupid.... I must say he is very good at what he does... but I fear for his safety because he might one day run into the wrong person and with his line of questioning it might not result in a pretty picture..... not saying, just saying.

 

[Jones]

To all,

I went out and met with the BA on my route yesterday and we went and visited the customer in question....

I showed the BA where I stopped to make the delivery, showed him the door I used and described the conditions that day... then we went inside and spoke with the customer...

Only one lady on staff yesterday, she was not the lady who was looking for the package that day.... she was dumbfounded when she learned that I had been terminated for this.... she was on the verge of crying.....she said and I quote "I told the manager who came out here that I did not want anything to happen to the driver (me) for this" she went on to say "She told me nothing would happen" that she "only wanted to get the facts of the situation"....

Come to find out...... some interesting facts.

1) Customer did not stay at the location all day as described by UPS management (they left location around mid-morning and returned around 11:30) If you recall I made the attempt at 11:52

2) Customers were having lunch in a back room (keep in mind this building is nearly 200 years old, heavy thick wooden doors and solid stacked stone and mortar interior walls) around the time period 11:45 to 12:45.........(I parked on the street which is at the front of the building)

3) The most important facts.....A) When the customers left that morning they used the side door to get to the parking lot and their vehicle... they locked all doors (including the one I tried, the front door) When they returned at 11:30 the customer said there is a possibility that they forgot to unlock the front door.....The customer told me and the BA that they told my manager this when she was interviewed by UPS....B) The customer said they have been having problems for months with the front door handle sticking and not being able to turn....have had numberous people think they were closed during posted open days because of this.... (she told my manager this as well) and as a follow up they had a newly posted sign on the front door (which I took a picture of) that says "While this door's handle is being repaired please use the side door" ........The BA was very pleased with the results of this visit and as we left the location he said "I think it's obvious UPS has been out on a witchhunt here".....

And as a final thought........

The BA told me the Division Manager (who personally hates me apparently) revealed to center manager, who subsequently told the BA "I see in his (mine) GPS information that he was at the location but I don't believe he even got out of the car"!!!!!!!!! and this after I was told they did not have the GPS information!!

What a crock of #$%$^^%&

Wow. What a company we work for, eh?

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Rocketman,

I don't understand your post??????? Can you translate?

 

[chopstic]

seems to me that since UPS management is accusing You of something. the burden of proof should be on them. They should be the one's who have to prove that you scanned and stop completed that package from a location other than the delivery address, or prove you had malicious intent.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

seems to me that since UPS management is accusing You of something. the burden of proof should be on them. They should be the one's who have to prove that you scanned and stop completed that package from a location other than the delivery address, or prove you had malicious intent.

Here's what I think.

You ain't kidding. It's guilty until proven innocent with the added, let's drag our feet until he/she begs for their job back without backpay.

Rocketman,

I don't understand your post??????? Can you translate?

What form of Gibberish would you like?

 

[Catatonic]

Rocketman,

I don't understand your post??????? Can you translate?

His specialty ... I always look for his posts to read although I do tend to have flashbacks!

 

[Mike23]

Mike23,

In our building the Division HR Manager is the guy UPS has tapped to handle panel hearings.... I suppose it is because he has shown the talent for ripping hourlies a new A-hole....he is a complete terror..... demands only yes or no answers and really, really, really tries to get you to lose your cool and say something stupid.... I must say he is very good at what he does... but I fear for his safety because he might one day run into the wrong person and with his line of questioning it might not result in a pretty picture..... not saying, just saying.

That sucks! Our HR dept is about the only form of management I halfway trust with sensitive information and they haven't let me down.

It sounds like you get the nice opportunity to NAIL UPS to the wall on this one. What'd your BA say about back pay? Go for it or no? I'd love to see you get it all and wave it under their noses

I do have a story of a driver sticking it to UPS that might put a grin on your face. The driver got into an accident during winter conditions (in Calgary they don't plow the roads so it's VERY dangerous driving which is why we're #1 in hitting inanimate objects...plus narrow side streets). The guy took off someone's mirror.

Unfortunately for him, the president of UPS Canada was visiting the building and termed the guy on the spot to make an example out of him. Our center manager was cool about it and told the guy to grieve it (which he did). I just found out that the guy got 3 months back pay was reinstated then gave his two weeks and told UPS to stick it . He had been a driver for 5 years here (which is a LOOOOONG time in Calgary since most drivers have 1 year or less experience).

So, UPS lost a darn good driver AND it cost them around 12k...Likely over that with all the paperwork shuffling.

I hope you get a chance to stick it too them too

 

[GeorgiaBrown]

Mike23,

I appreciate the positive sentiment....The BA said we have grounds for backpay but told me he was going to meet with UPS and present the new evidence and tell them they need to reinstate me immediately or we are going to panel and ask for all back pay.... I'm not sure which way I am going to go on this one...... going to panel, even with a good case is not a guaranteed win....... I feel like I definetly deserve back pay but I am not willing to lose my job in order to get it...