I drink your milkshake! a metaphor for capitalism

El Correcto

god is dead
im not talking about that.

and btw i think its strange people who think theyre "free" when they follow orders all day.
Here you are free not to follow orders. In communist North Korea where you are not free they will put you in a labor camp and work your ass to death for not following orders. That’s called being a slave, Ricky you truly don’t understand what oppression is and it’s because you were born in a nation built on the principles of individual liberty. Try going to China and marching the streets yelling that the party in power is corrupt and bad for the nation. Better yet North Korea.
 

El Correcto

god is dead
were going mad max with our current system

yea im talking about worker control, not taking orders from government or capitalists.

im talking about more political referendums / direct democracy, and less respresentative democracy.
Yes Ricky that’s a brilliant idea. I’m sure no nation has ever tried these. What will you call your new country? Venezuela?
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
Here you are free not to follow orders. In communist North Korea where you are not free they will put you in a labor camp and work your ass to death for not following orders. That’s called being a slave, Ricky you truly don’t understand what oppression is and it’s because you were born in a nation built on the principles of individual liberty. Try going to China and marching the streets yelling that the party in power is corrupt and bad for the nation. Better yet North Korea.
but you still follow orders all day whether you are free to quit or not.

this is a situation for a majority of workers.
 

El Correcto

god is dead
but you still follow orders all day whether you are free to quit or not.

this is a situation for a majority of workers.
Yes Ricky it’s called prosperity. You know how many people in this world would kill their mother to be in the situation I’m in. To go “slave away” at UPS for the compensation I receive.
 

El Correcto

god is dead
i am jacks complete lack of surprise

check out the emilia romagna cooperatives in italy. italy leads in worker controlled jobs.
I know it’s trendy to hate America Ricky. But the truth is we are the most charitable nation on earth, our power after world war 2 has brought about the most peaceful and stable time in human history. Imagine what the world would look like if it had been Europe that had a monopoly on nuclear weapons.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
Yes Ricky and italy’s average household income is less than 30,000 a year. Sounds wonderful!
heres an older article but i recall krugman (who i dont like) talking about on bill moyers a few years back:


French Family Values
By PAUL KRUGMANJULY 29, 2005

Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly?

The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe -- France, in particular -- shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.

First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France -- G.D.P. per hour worked -- is actually a bit higher than in the United States.

It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families.


O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers.

The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart.

The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out.

But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
I know it’s trendy to hate America Ricky. But the truth is we are the most charitable nation on earth, our power after world war 2 has brought about the most peaceful and stable time in human history. Imagine what the world would look like if it had been Europe that had a monopoly on nuclear weapons.
o god get me a barf bucket.

imagine if america never had any! no nuke would have ever been used in war.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
Yes Ricky it’s called prosperity. You know how many people in this world would kill their mother to be in the situation I’m in. To go “slave away” at UPS for the compensation I receive.
well your talking about 3rd world workers and some first world ones too.

your looking as if the glass is half full. its below half.
 

El Correcto

god is dead
heres an older article but i recall krugman (who i dont like) talking about on bill moyers a few years back:


French Family Values
By PAUL KRUGMANJULY 29, 2005

Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly?

The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe -- France, in particular -- shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.

First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France -- G.D.P. per hour worked -- is actually a bit higher than in the United States.

It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families.


O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers.

The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart.

The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out.

But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four.
So you are telling me I’m compensated for lower wages with more time off making less money. What I’m seeing is these policies are lack luster to begin with and they are only compensating 60million people. Imagine how much it’d cost the nation and our private sector to do this for almost 6 times the amount of people.
 

El Correcto

god is dead
well your talking about 3rd world workers and some first world ones too.

your looking as if the glass is half full. its below half.
You’re so spoiled. Try immigrating to these places in hopping on their social welfare Ricky. Oh wait most of them have strict immigration laws.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
but you still follow orders all day whether you are free to quit or not.

this is a situation for a majority of workers.
How many coops do not have rules? No coop bylaws? No board of directors/equivalent? They still have bosses and are following orders from the top down. Especially the European conglomerate you’ve touted before.
 

El Correcto

god is dead
How many coops do not have rules? No coop bylaws? No board of directors/equivalent? They still have bosses and are following orders from the top down. Especially the European conglomerate you’ve touted before.
Shhhh, the workers are the bosses don’t ya see! In capitalist society your boss is the Bourgeoisie holding down the noble proletariat. In ricky’s society everyone is the proletariat and votes into power the bourgeois into positions of government that runs everything. It’s worked so well for many places, just ignore the hundreds of million dead they were capitalist scum.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Shhhh, the workers are the bosses don’t ya see! In capitalist society your boss is the Bourgeoisie holding down the noble proletariat. In ricky’s society everyone is the proletariat and votes into power the bourgeois into positions of government that runs everything. It’s worked so well for many places, just ignore the hundreds of million dead they were capitalist scum.
He can never answer any of the important details. I don’t think he knows how any of it works. He just keeps pushing a bunch of millionaires agendas. And these millionaires keep getting richer. These millionaires don’t even walk the walk.
 

SolidWoodPanel

Probably the Greatest American Alive
were going mad max with our current system

yea im talking about worker control, not taking orders from government or capitalists.

im talking about more political referendums / direct democracy, and less respresentative democracy.

Be honest, are you just upset Trump is president? Did you feel this way with Barack?

I'll let you know, I used to have similar sentiments. I was a very anti-authoritarian, power to the people person. And there's some issues that I think the crowd should get to vote on, or if not, at least be able to build a meaningful referendum. That's just to tell govt representatives how the people feel, and also to keep them in check.
But probably, in the quarter of my life (I'm not that old btw), there is no way in hell I want some of these absolute worthless retards making government decisions. I mean, the politicians are bad enough. But, for example, I have a neighbor across the street from me. 42 years old, lives with his parents. Been arrested on minor drug offenses mostly, maybe a simple aggravated assault or three. Finally went to prison for 18 months on heroin possession. This was about 6 months before he got popped for selling MJ very close, but maybe not close enough to a school. He got a small fine for that. This guy probably couldn't divide 100 by 10. Has worked maybe a total of 4-5 years his entire life, been fired from every job. Gets all kinds of disability, unemployment, etc. Sure he can vote, but no way in hell am I willing to share my bread with this creature. And, honestly, around here, where I live, a good 30-40% of the people are equally as dumb and I won't say worthless, but truly unfit to handle the kind of responsibility it would take to have a direct democracy.

But I would like to see how federal, state, and local budgets would be affected if people were able to allocate portions of the taxes they pay to certain things like infrastructure, education, defense, foreign aid, etc. That'd be interesting.
 

SolidWoodPanel

Probably the Greatest American Alive
He can never answer any of the important details. I don’t think he knows how any of it works. He just keeps pushing a bunch of millionaires agendas. And these millionaires keep getting richer. These millionaires don’t even walk the walk.
You talkin' bout them squares over yonder in Hollyweird?
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
So you are telling me I’m compensated for lower wages with more time off making less money. What I’m seeing is these policies are lack luster to begin with and they are only compensating 60million people. Imagine how much it’d cost the nation and our private sector to do this for almost 6 times the amount of people.
what do you mean. america spends its taxes on war.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
He can never answer any of the important details. I don’t think he knows how any of it works. He just keeps pushing a bunch of millionaires agendas. And these millionaires keep getting richer. These millionaires don’t even walk the walk.
whos agenda are you pushing ;)
 
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