Is anyone following Wisconsin?

804brown

Well-Known Member
Brown army,
I believe I can shed some light on this for you. Through out our history even under JFK when taxes are LOWERED for all, jobs are created, the people that pay tax --not the 40% and growing takers --have more SPENDABLE income that is not given to special interests groups on either side but spent throughout the economy.
Perfect example --read and absorb-try to have a non -partisan position.
The recent trillion dollar stimulous plan. The politicians raved about 'SHOVEL READY" jobs and how the unemployment would stay below 8%. Millions of jobs were to be created or saved.
Two years later with unemployment at 10% our elected leader tell us there were NO SHOVEL ready jobs ????
Billions spent --unemployment up --where did the money joe B was doling out go ???
To public sector union jobs that are paid for BY PRIVATE sector people. The money was also doled out to liberal special interests such as tree huggers,arts and sciences.
The Private sector including the US chamber of commerce had OBAMA'S boot on their throats --never putting together a national budget, spending money and borrowing from China, telling business that taxes would go up and slamming in Obama care which would drive costs through the roof !!!! notice all the unions now begging for a dispensation from Obama care --LOWERING COST -please.

I can also tell you how common sense would have ended this situation.
One do not push a huge thousands of page law that nobody knew what was in it--another entitlement --during a major recession --Obama should have been working on JOBS DAY 1--but obviously while he speaks well --he is incompetant as a leader.
Two the stimulous one trillion dollars equals the amount of federal income tax witholding from our paychecks. The government should have told the American people --all of us --liberal, conservative , independent--for one year --no federal income tax will be with held. But you must use this extra spendable income to stimulate the economy.
Go to malls,restaurants,use contractors, etc,etc .
At the end of the year whatever you would have paid in tax you must have receipts that show in fact the money was spent.
NO special interests groups would have been involved, jobs would have been created in the PRIVATE SECTOR, even parcel delivery volumes would have skyrocketed !!!
The new created Private sector jobs would now create the WEALTH -from which the public sector is kept alive .. surely makes a little sense to anyone not so "dug in" to any ideology.:wink2:

Fact is the stimulus did create some jobs and it saved others. Economists all admit that. True this was a huge recession WHICH MEANT THE STIMULUS SHOULD HAVE BEEN BIGGER NOT SMALLER.

On "common sense", Obama did focus on job creation on Day 1, he pushed threw the stimulus (to stimulate the economy to CREATE jobs). Health care came later and was passed Jan 2010. On more tax cuts stimulating the economy, Bush tried it in 2008 and it didnt work. Also one third of the stimulus WAS TAX CUTS!! The Obama tax cuts were withholdig tax cuts; we actually never got a separate check, but we got it as more take home pay. And it helped the economy because that is what we do as Americans , we spend our $$. Your idea is quite "common" on the right, but it doesn't make any economic "sense".
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Lower taxes on the working and middle class and they will spend it. Give a huge tax cut to the already wealthy and they save it.

:happy-very:Like you really know what "wealthy" people do with their money.
Of course they are not the business owners who invest and grow the private sector that has made America the most successful and free country in history.
Of course the wealthy put their money in "piggy banks" and do not spend their money on cars, boats, clothes etc .

It is all relative 804 --let me open your eyes:

Many of the UPS partimers firmly believe that the UPS are drivers are "wealthy"
Many part-timers will say --screw the drivers --let them pay for My raise in the next contract. Why is my per hour wage so much lower that what I make !!!

I worked 36 years at UPS -MUCH O/T many years of hard work --my wife and I have no children.
My next door neighbor laughed and made fun of me for years as I went to work early and came home very late at night.

He pumped out five kids,worked whatever hours he wanted in his "LANDSCAPING" BUSINESS --working off the books--taking advantage of every "entitlement " program out there.

Although my property tax is three times what he pays ---He claims because I am rich --and should pay more to support his childrens schooling !!!!


With trying to maintain a safety net we have developed a large numger of lazy,jealous,dishonest people that want the finer things in life as long as someone else pays for it. I am glad I was never that type of person --a low life -a leach.

The dems and the Unions have convinced many very hard working middle class that they represent them --while only feeding and growing a whole generation of takers who lack any Integrity or personal responsability------let someone pay!!!

As I said many lazy people think hard working UPS drivers are rich ----Hey an idea everyone making more that 70,000 no matter how hard they work or overtime they put in -----lets raise taxes on everyone 70'000 or more, change that 60'000 or more --wait I am one of those not working --let someone making 50,000 or more pay for me --they are rich ?????:happy-very:
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Fact is the stimulus did create some jobs and it saved others. Economists all admit that. True this was a huge recession WHICH MEANT THE STIMULUS SHOULD HAVE BEEN BIGGER NOT SMALLER.

On "common sense", Obama did focus on job creation on Day 1, he pushed threw the stimulus (to stimulate the economy to CREATE jobs). Health care came later and was passed Jan 2010. On more tax cuts stimulating the economy, Bush tried it in 2008 and it didnt work. Also one third of the stimulus WAS TAX CUTS!! The Obama tax cuts were withholdig tax cuts; we actually never got a separate check, but we got it as more take home pay. And it helped the economy because that is what we do as Americans , we spend our $$. Your idea is quite "common" on the right, but it doesn't make any economic "sense".

804,
Please do not re-write history.
Simply put everyone knows tax cuts work.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
The stimulus saved/created jobs. Maybe, but at what cost per job? I can't find a number that everybody agrees on OR find what a saved job actually is.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
bbsam,
P.S.
The Republican's did not shut down the Government when OBAMA care was rammed through with a Christmas eve vote.
They waited for the next election --and the people spoke.
Wisconsin Democrats should do the same --elections are elections. If the Republicans 'OVER-REACH ' like Obama has --let the people correct in the next election.

The Repubs didnt shut down the government because they couldn't! They did try to stop government from working starting jan 2009 through Nov 2010 with a record number of filibusters. And Health Care Reform was not rammed through congress. It was debated from April 2009 til Dec 2009. The Repubs had their chances of adding to the bills and they added nothing.
Obama did not "overreach". He ran on Health Care Reform and he delivered. When it is fully implemented by 2014, then we will see how popular it is. Reforming health care is not overreaching. Trying to destroy unions is! But then again you sound like management, so you probabaly agree with that.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
:happy-very:Like you really know what "wealthy" people do with their money.
Of course they are not the business owners who invest and grow the private sector that has made America the most successful and free country in history.
Of course the wealthy put their money in "piggy banks" and do not spend their money on cars, boats, clothes etc .

It is all relative 804 --let me open your eyes:

Many of the UPS partimers firmly believe that the UPS are drivers are "wealthy"
Many part-timers will say --screw the drivers --let them pay for My raise in the next contract. Why is my per hour wage so much lower that what I make !!!

I worked 36 years at UPS -MUCH O/T many years of hard work --my wife and I have no children.
My next door neighbor laughed and made fun of me for years as I went to work early and came home very late at night.

He pumped out five kids,worked whatever hours he wanted in his "LANDSCAPING" BUSINESS --working off the books--taking advantage of every "entitlement " program out there.

Although my property tax is three times what he pays ---He claims because I am rich --and should pay more to support his childrens schooling !!!!


With trying to maintain a safety net we have developed a large numger of lazy,jealous,dishonest people that want the finer things in life as long as someone else pays for it. I am glad I was never that type of person --a low life -a leach.

The dems and the Unions have convinced many very hard working middle class that they represent them --while only feeding and growing a whole generation of takers who lack any Integrity or personal responsability------let someone pay!!!

As I said many lazy people think hard working UPS drivers are rich ----Hey an idea everyone making more that 70,000 no matter how hard they work or overtime they put in -----lets raise taxes on everyone 70'000 or more, change that 60'000 or more --wait I am one of those not working --let someone making 50,000 or more pay for me --they are rich ?????:happy-very:


Economists say that the wealthy dont make this economy move. Look over the past couple of yrs the economy has been weak due to the working class and middle class folk not having jobs,etc. The wealthy made $$ hand over fist yet nothing happened did it.

Wow, you base your economic theories from a few part timers you might have spoke to about economics LOL as well as a neighbor of yours. Ok!

On the safety net, we have a safety net because the private sector cannot provide a job for everyone, or healthcare or pensions. We found that out during the Great Depression. The welfare state is used to make up for what capitalism lacks. Capitalism by nature cannot supply a job for everyone. Capitalism needs a large supply of excess workers (aka unemployed people) ; it keeps wages low.

It is amazing. Ask anyone and they will say the unemployment rate should be 0 or at least close to 0%. But according to mainstream capitalist economics, the lowest it should go is about 6 %!! Alan Greenspan repeated that a few years ago. His logic is that a higher unemployment rate means more workers willing to take less . When unemployment is low, the advantage goes to the worker because he/she can say no to a low wage offer and take another job at a higher wage rate! It is all about keeping wages as low as possible!! Chew on that for awhile.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
Yeah 8o4,
You are so correct --thats why the last election was like "Little big Horn" for the DEM'S :happy-very:

Dems lost because of 10% umemployment!! This was not an ideological election. Polls showed that even repubs in congress were unpoular but someone had to take the blame for hard economic times. Dont read too much into it. Reagan also got his clock cleaned in his midterms in 1982 as well as Clinton in 1994. Remember Bush left office at about 25% popular. Clinton at 60%. Obama won with 53% of the vote . Miraculously with the economy as bad as it was and stil is, he is still hovering around 50%. Not bad.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
804,
Please do not re-write history.
Simply put everyone knows tax cuts work.

I am not re-writing history here. "Everyone" ?? knows that tax cuts work?? Work for whom?? Bush tried to stimulate the economy in the Spring of 2008, that didn't work. Even Obama had 1/3 of the stimulus as tax cuts, but it didn't do the trick either.

Wait, you are right! Tax cuts work for millionaires and billionaires and Wall St con men as well as Big Bankers. They get to keep more of their $$. Tax cuts work for anti-government reactionaries who would love to see government shrink to the point where they can "drown it in a bathtub". Then there would be less regulation on their businesses so they could pollute and exploit their workers and manipulate financial markets and housing etc.
I do apologize, they do work what was I thinking!
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Ok,,, please explain how raising taxes on those "rich" is going to fix our economy? Basically what you are doing is bringing money to the government and short term, things will see well. How exactly does raising taxes work long term? And what percentage is ok to take from the "rich"?
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
!
Ok,,, please explain how raising taxes on those "rich" is going to fix our economy? Basically what you are doing is bringing money to the government and short term, things will see well. How exactly does raising taxes work long term? And what percentage is ok to take from the "rich"?


Taxing the rich will not totally fix our economy. But the alternative is cutting spending. This economy desperately needs spending. The rich have been sitting on $2 trillion in cash already! It is about fairness. When times are tough, why cut more local, state or federal jobs. The rich never pay their fair share. This is the first time in our history that we have been at war and NOT asked the rich to kick in some more (we spent $1 trillion on afghan/iraq that was borrowed from the Chinese). We are coming out of the Great Recession and once again we do not ask the wealthy to help out. Of course not. A matter of fact we just gave them a huge tax cut in Dec (thankyou repubs and Obama). But it seems ok to layoff teachers and cops in every state of this country!! Something is really wrong here!!
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
If your wife spends like crazy and you have too much month at the end of the money.....would you tell her to continue spending money ????? I think not unless you are a fool.
 

Channahon

Well-Known Member
!


Taxing the rich will not totally fix our economy. But the alternative is cutting spending. This economy desperately needs spending. The rich have been sitting on $2 trillion in cash already! It is about fairness. When times are tough, why cut more local, state or federal jobs. The rich never pay their fair share. This is the first time in our history that we have been at war and NOT asked the rich to kick in some more (we spent $1 trillion on afghan/iraq that was borrowed from the Chinese). We are coming out of the Great Recession and once again we do not ask the wealthy to help out. Of course not. A matter of fact we just gave them a huge tax cut in Dec (thankyou repubs and Obama). But it seems ok to layoff teachers and cops in every state of this country!! Something is really wrong here!!

I only speak from my perspective, on the corruption, fraud and waste in the state of Illinois, regarding local, and state employees. Most state employees here get pensions that match their salaries, and toward the end of their careers, they accumulate vacations and personal days to enhance their retirement benefits. Does any employee at UPS get that benefit?

The Cook County Sheriffs Dept has 20% disability rate, so the staffing is compensated by 20% in salaries and benefits, and with that trend, 5% of the 20% will go out on disability.

So to tax the rich, and not of your definition, but according to the Feds, anyone couple who makes over $250,000 a year, well think of all the small and medium size businesses at UPS. Add to that Obama Health care mandates, and the rich as defined above cannot provide the jobs to get the economy going again.

In my thoughts it is time for public employees to participate in this recession, and cut costs, that are the taxpayers burden. The private sector has lost jobs, homes, benefits, while public employees have been getting raises. I am not anti union by any stretch of the imagination, just business experience with planning, cost plans and accountability. Thank you
 
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