Ken H

[TimeForChange]

Hoffa Jr is in his 70's? Really?

So your signature is "Anyone can Google.", but you don't know that Daddy's Boy is 72?

 

[Anonymous 10]

First off, the majority of UPSers voted in favor of the agreement. And secondly... you do realize there's Teamsters beyond UPS, right?

And those members actually vote. Big time.

 

[Anonymous 10]

Sorry, but my facts are accurate, yours are not.

As I wrote, at the conclusion of the contract, drivers will be in the 5%. $94K in annual wages alone places them in the top 7%, toss in no-cost benefits & pension contributions, it moves them into the top 5%.

Secondly, over the life of the contract, the raise is well over 2%, considering FT work an average of 45 hrs/week (according to the IBT - I'm willing to bet the number is higher for most).

Thirdly, as you start to earn more $$$, absolute percentages begin to drop. A new PTer earning the same raise as a FTer would see an 8% spike in annual compensation. There are very, very, very few professionals (the number's probably in the single digits) earning $70K/year who earn a 2% annual pay increase alongside a zero percent increase in health care contributions.

The median wage, FWIW, for a FT employee over the age of 25 in the USA is $43,000/year. That same employee contributes an average of $4300/year (10% of his pre-tax income) toward his family health insurance. And that health insurance has an average deductible of about $1,000; doctor visits cost an average of $30 and specialists $40.

You're the man bagels.

 

[kickbacksocal]

Earning over the base pay of 40 hours a week would be great, with great benefits. (I am writing this as a ups mechanic), this reason I came to work for this company 20 plus years ago, was for the benefits, at the time I came to work for ups, I had to have my smog license, tools and work experience, on the journeymen level. As a mechanic we cannot work any overtime, for the last 3 years, it has been 8 and skate, which I really like. So my income is base pay. ln the 60,000 range. The only problem I have is when we go in negotiation's the teamsters have already set the pay raise we get. The benefits are the mean reason we come to work everyday. When they take that away from us it would be just like any other company. I wish I could be making the money a lot of drivers make. I have my time invested now, so just looking for the time I can retire and have a good retirement with good benefits, so for us mechanics we do depend on you teamsters to stand strong and fight for a great contract. This is Davis last contract, so he better make sure the company is very profitable in the years to come, so his stock will not lose value. He is looking out for his best interest.

 

[728ups]

I have made a great deal of money in the contracts hall has negotiated,I have seen what i consider favourable language added to the contract that was not in previous contracts,and have felt the contracts he has negotiated has both rewarded the hourly employees while keeping UPS strong and profitable( we really shouldn't want to kill the Golden Goose).
I'll put my flame suit on and state I think that this is an excellent contract,a win /win for both parties.

flame away

 

[Anonymous 10]

I have made a great deal of money in the contracts Ken H has negotiated,I have seen what i consider favourable language added to the contract that was not in previous contracts,and have felt the contracts he has negotiated has both rewarded the hourly employees while keeping UPS strong and profitable( we really shouldn't want to kill the Golden Goose).
I'll put my flame suit on and state I think that this is an excellent contract,a win /win for both parties.

flame away

who cares if they flame for having good common sense.

 

[Benben]

Sorry, but my facts are accurate, yours are not.

As I wrote, at the conclusion of the contract, drivers will be in the 5%. $94K in annual wages alone places them in the top 7%, toss in no-cost benefits & pension contributions, it moves them into the top 5%.

Secondly, over the life of the contract, the raise is well over 2%, considering FT work an average of 45 hrs/week (according to the IBT - I'm willing to bet the number is higher for most).

Thirdly, as you start to earn more $$$, absolute percentages begin to drop. A new PTer earning the same raise as a FTer would see an 8% spike in annual compensation. There are very, very, very few professionals (the number's probably in the single digits) earning $70K/year who earn a 2% annual pay increase alongside a zero percent increase in health care contributions.

The median wage, FWIW, for a FT employee over the age of 25 in the USA is $43,000/year. That same employee contributes an average of $4300/year (10% of his pre-tax income) toward his family health insurance. And that health insurance has an average deductible of about $1,000; doctor visits cost an average of $30 and specialists $40.

***

ttp://www.whatsmypercent.com/ Thats the second source I have supplied. Stop pulling crap out of your rear end and presenting them as facts! The raise is less than what I see among my friends. The raise is less than the anual raise my wife gets working at her job in the hospital.

Here is another fact for you. The less than 2% raise we get in this contract is less than the average inflation rate over the past 15 years! In fact its less than the inflation rate for every year except 3 since 1999.
ttp://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/

We took it in the shorts this contract. This contract increased Health Care Costs for the MAJORITY of Teamsters. There are MANY, MANY professionals who receive pay increases over 2%.

I do not know who you are or who you think you are ****.

 

[hyena]

Us Fedexers didn't get any raise.

There you go. For those of you who think we don't need more money go work for fedex, and (thedownhill express can come work for us im sure hed appreciate a raise) those of us who have some self respect can continue to work a UNION job.

 

[Bagels]

You are a liar! <snip>


I do not know who you are or who you think you are but either put up or shut up.

#1) You apparently don't realize there's a difference between INDIVIDUAL incomes and HOUSEHOLD incomes.

#2) You apparently don't realize the meaning of TOTAL COMPENSATION.

#3) You apparently don't comprehend 'AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE UPCOMING CONTRACT.'

#4) You apparently don't understand the concept of inflation. Do you really believe that somebody with an annual salary of $1M would need to earn a raise equivalent to the rate of inflation just to keep their earning power up? Relative percentage drops as absolute income grows. If economics is beyond your comprehension, then don't comment on it.

#5) Per BLS, the most accurate source, somebody with a $75K individual income (about on par to what the average driver currently makes) is within the top 10% of all wage earners; $100,00 is within the top 5%. This is verified through plenty of sources: Affluence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#6) Toss in the average FT benefits, it moves them up considerably.

Instead of acting like a baby and attacking me, attack the argument. Just get your facts straight.

 

[728ups]

There you go. For those of you who think we don't need more money go work for fedex, and (thedownhill express can come work for us im sure hed appreciate a raise) those of us who have some self respect can continue to work a UNION job.

I think you missed his point: we have it VERY good,some need to appreciate this little more I dare say

 

[Anonymous 10]

#1) You apparently don't realize there's a difference between INDIVIDUAL incomes and HOUSEHOLD incomes.

#2) You apparently don't realize the meaning of TOTAL COMPENSATION.

#3) You apparently don't comprehend 'AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE UPCOMING CONTRACT.'

#4) You apparently don't understand the concept of inflation. Do you really believe that somebody with an annual salary of $1M would need to earn a raise equivalent to the rate of inflation just to keep their earning power up? Relative percentage drops as absolute income grows. If economics is beyond your comprehension, then don't comment on it.

#5) Per BLS, the most accurate source, somebody with a $75K individual income (about on par to what the average driver currently makes) is within the top 10% of all wage earners; $100,00 is within the top 5%. This is verified through plenty of sources: Affluence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#6) Toss in the average FT benefits, it moves them up considerably.

Instead of acting like a baby and attacking me, attack the argument. Just get your facts straight.

Game set match

 

[Catatonic]

Hoffa Jr is in his 70's? Really?

Anyone can Google - he is 72.

Nice dyed hair I must admit.
He looks younger than me and I am 15 years younger.

 

[Benben]

Your #1; Has absolutely no bearing in this arguement. Wow talk about trying to do an end-around on facts.

Your #2; Total compensation is ummm............maybe total? Please buy a clue and give facts instead of made-up numbers. This is now the third time I have asked you for facts or even a source (we'll get to that absolute joke of an attempt in a min.)

Your #3 arguement gets even weaker when you consider the raise is the same the first 4 years thus dropping the raise even further. The 5th year's raise is bigger but is diluted because the first 4 years base has grown and because the raise is a split raise. So the math is 1.3% raise for 1/2 the year then its another 1.3% raise for the second half of the year. "AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE UPCOMING CONTRACT," we will be poorer due to inflation.

Your #4; WTF? By definition, inflation decreases earnings! Oh wait you are trying to confuse the whole matter. Earnings Power is a term used within bussiness to evaluate the risk/reward of investments. In regards to the individual it has no purpose in this discussion. You tried to tie it in with the example of a 1 million dollar income. That high of an income would have an amount of "discreationary" income and thus earnings power might become pertanent but it is not so when we are talking about incomes of less than 6 figures. Nice try though. "Relative percentage drops as absolute income grows" Thank you for that, it is exactly what I said from the get go....The raise is less than inflation!

Your #5; We come to your first attempt at presenting a fact supported with a source outside of the, "because I said so." Nice try but a total fail. Wikipedia is not a source. It is a collection of user supplied opinions. If someone does not like a fact presented on that community site they can, and have many, many times changed it without reguards to the truth. This is done daily by companies all across the world. Again, just because you said it is so does not make it true. I have given you 3 solid sources and you give us Wikipedia?

Your #6; I don't follow. It is an incomplete sentence. Please take a few moments and gather yourself. Then get back to us when you can make sense.

Ok my question is where are you comming from? Are you UPS management or from the IBT. Your arguements are all 1 sided and jaded to the extreme. This contract ONLY benifits UPS and the IBT. It is a loss for every current ups employee outside of management other than new-hire part timers and then only those that do not intent to go full time. Seeing the quality of the new-hire PTers the past 2 years something had to be done. The percentage of PTers quiting after a few weeks was insane. The work was not worth the pay. UPS kept losing new hires to McDonalds becuase the starting pay was the same and the work was 1/4 as hard. The increase starting pay was more about UPS getting new workers than it was about the current workers.

 

[Catatonic]

Regardless who is correct.

​While I do not agree with all that Bagels posts, I always respected his logical approach and laying out an argument.

Holds true in this thread as well.

 

[Benben]

"5) Per BLS, the most accurate source, somebody with a $75K individual income (about on par to what the average driver currently makes) is within the top 10% of all wage earners; $100,00 is within the top 5%. This is verified through plenty of sources: Affluence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

$75K income

70%What Percent Are You? - Real Time Economics - WSJ
60-80%%Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power
67.53%Household income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia--SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH BROUGHT THIS SIGHT UP. FOR #$%TS AND GIGGLES I BROUGHT IT UP. PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR INACCURACY!

 

[Bagels]

Benben,
You're in way over your head. I've made it clear I was referring to single-employer wages & compensation, yet you keep linking me to sources comparing HOUSEHOLD income. Household income is comprised of multiple income streams -- your wife, a second job, a side business, interest, investments, etc. You say this has "absolutely no bearing in this argument," which leads to me to think you have no idea what I'm talking about, despite your animation.

Secondly, your understanding of economics is completely flawed. If the CPI index (what most people refer to as "inflation") rose 3%, to suggest that somebody earning $20,000/year and somebody earning $75,000/year would each need to obtain a 3% raise to maintain their spending power (which is the concept behind "inflationary raise") is completely false.

Thirdly, I voted NO on this contract, but I believe the economic & health care proposals were more than fair. The goal of IBT should be to earn its membership their share of the profits. UPS has many other employee groups -- management, non-union, logistics & SCS, Freight, international operations, etc. just to name a few. UPS Freight just voted down their contract because they believe they're entitled to the same contract as package ... even though they don't contribute the same contribution margin, profits or infrastructure that the package division does. My concern with this contract is the Teamster's inability to change the Article 7 language.

 

[Benben]

"At the conclusion of this contract, package car drivers will be among the top 5% individual earners in total compensation within the USA." That is how you started in this thread which is compleatley false. the top 5% had an AGI of $160,000 in 2009, 4 years ago. You can back pedal and keep trying to change the parameters but it still does not change the fact that UPS drivers are no where near the top 5% sources: Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data | Tax Foundation and How Much Money Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage? | Financial Samurai.


Inflation refers to the cost of things currently compared to years past. An over simplification would be a loaf of bread that cost $1 last year now costs $2. That is an inflation rate of 100%. Now inflation is not tied into 1 single commodity like a loaf of bread. It is a general, overall rise in the costs of everything in a "basket of goods" including food, transportation medical care, ect.
When my check goes up 2% and the inflation goes up 3% I can not buy as much food for my family when I go to the store using the same percentage of my pay. The same goes for paying my bills with the same percentage of my paycheck. My purchasing power has erroded. That is a loss to me and my family. You use the phrase, "spending power" and I find it misleading and inaccurate. I use the phrase, "purchasing power" because thats more accurate in terms of real world application. A decent article about this can be found here: Pioneer Investment - The Effect of Inflation on Purchasing Power - May 14, 2010. If you can not understand how a driver will be making less 6 years from now than they did 6 years ago when the raises were greater than inflation I can not help you anymore. I am at a total loss at this point.

If the only problem you had with the TA was with respect to article 7............we each have and deserve our own opinions lets just leave it at that. You saw the other apsects as, "more than fair." I saw all other aspects as a loss or a decrease in what we already had. The contract will cost us more and give us nothing additional than what we already had. This includes the incredibly weak "harassment" Verbiage. My 16 year old could twist those words to make them mean any damn thing he could want them to mean. What a total waste of ink there.

 

[you aint even know it]

I'm curious as to how you feel this contract is inferior, for FT employees, than the one in 1997. At the conclusion of this contract, package car drivers will be among the top 5% individual earners in total compensation within the USA. That's absolutely staggering, and an incredible achievement from the Teamsters, especially given the near-monopoly that UPS enjoyed in 1997 vs. the strong competition today. Benefits are still no-cost, and the TEAMCARE option will cost FTers less out-of-pocket that the traditional insurance they had at the time. Although many on here will say 'it's not about the money,' it is. It's pretty clear from reading BC that many of the FTers on here expected a more significant pay increase.

Doesn't earning $94,000/year with no-cost benefits as a delivery driver seem reasonable & fair? Especially given the cost it comes with -- significant increases in PT/temporary/casual employees performing FT work, an increase in the progression, etc. In five years, the Teamsters will once again concede an even larger increase in PT/temporary/casual employees to perform FT work, as well as a lengthened progression. There's only so much money to go around, and it's a pyramid scheme to ensure the FT drivers get the elephant's share.

The contract's very mediocre for PTers, but we (PTers) can blame ourselves for not voting. If we did, we'd likely get a larger bite of the apple. But this isn't the worst contract for FT or PT. That'd have to be the last contract, which was overwhelmingly approved despite lesser wage increases split over six months, benefits pulled from PTers until after 12/18 months, concessions in health care (transition to PPO from traditional) and the pullout of Central States. The latter may not have been such a bad idea, but given how badly UPS wanted, and that the contract was negotiated during robust times, I'm surprised at how poor it turned out to be.

Maybe the biggest change from 1997 was the minimal support FTers showed PTers. Today, the FTers would happily sign a contract that gave them an extra $1 an hour at the expense of eliminating PT benefits, then justify it by saying '...well, PT was never meant to be a career.' If you ask Scott Davis, FT package car driving wasn't, either.

Clap clap clap. Well said!! I literally bowed down and clapped for your comment.

 

[anonymous6]

if hall and Hoffa knew this was a substandard contract and pushed it anyway, they should be impeached and removed from office.

if they did not know this was a substandard contract they are too dumb to lead the Teamsters and should be removed from office.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

The vast majority of working Americans would drool over what you call "substandard".