REFORM PLAN FOR Central States Pension Plan

[Mugarolla]

I have read so many of these CSPF post that has misinformation I just have to post.

Well, it's about time you said something. You have just been disagreeing with posts instead of posting your reason as to why you disagree.

I guess that's what the button is for. Anyone can click a button. Tell us why you disagree.

I have read so many of these CSPF post that has misinformation I just have to post. I will state how the current UPS contract reads and how the CSPF letter effects our benefits.

It's about time

There are so many people that think this Central States pension payment buy out of billions of dollars funded our pension payments FOR LIFE. This is so misleading. It does NOT.

Yes it does. The withdrawal liability was what was need to cover that portion of UPS retirees pensions who will receive a partial CSPF payment, for life. Problem is, the money vanished and is now gone. So they have to do something.

The UPS Pension buy out (Employees working after Jan 2007) only guarantees the premium full pension that we will receive until normal retirement age (age 65).

Plus the UPS portion after normal retirement age, 65. But the buy out did not guarantee the CSPF portion. The buy out is what was needed to cover the CSPF portion, for life.

And, under the current law at the time, it was guaranteed. The pension fund could not reduce it. So yes, the pension buy out plan guaranteed your full pension for life, until the law changed.

There are no guarantees in life, except for taxes and death.

but the CS Pension payout stays the same (in which has been cut to the new stated amount from said CSPF letter.)

You're relying, stating facts, on a calculator on a web site?

The cuts were only announced last week and are not even approved yet, and you think a calculator has been updated?

B. Same contract, same supplement, same article, page 218 and 219. It states UPS/IBT will recognize full time service in the CS Plan for determining eligibility for the benefits in this section and will offset at Normal Retirement Age the benefits accrued from the CS Plan commencing at Normal Retirement Age. If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or required by law, the amount of such reduction shall not be included in this offset.

Yes, it says that.

And we can argue all day long what it means. The fact is that even CSPF, within the letters they sent out, agree that this clause means that UPS is liable for any reduction.

So are you going to believe a calculator on a web site, or are you going to believe your Congress, your union and the CSPF?

And to add to my previous post. If you truly believe the all mighty UPS Pension plan is going to pay out full benefits for the rest of your life, then WHY did CSPF even need to mail out their pension cut letter to active UPS employees?

Are you serious?

The CSPF is going to cut our pensions and you don't want them to send you a letter?

And if UPS employees are so protected, then why would you need to worry about some payout reduction amount?

Again, are you serious? CSPF is showing you what your pension amount is going to be reduced to. If UPS, by law or contract, does not pay this reduction, you need to know what your pension will be.

By law, they have to send you these letters. I am not worried about my CSPF cuts. It is going to happen and it is a fact.

I am worried about UPS finding some was to not make them up.

Now, you will see that from age 65 until age 70, the UPS paid portion of the pension continues to increase..........but the CS Pension payout stays the same (in which has been cut to the new stated amount from said CSPF letter.)

Yes, the CS portion stays the same. You are not earning any more credits in the CS Plan. It will be a fixed amount starting at age 65 until you die.

The UPS portion will rise as you put in later dates of retirements because we have a contributory pension. The more years we put in, the higher the pension will be. UPS portion rises and the CSPF portion remains constant.

And, by the way, the calculator shows what the CS Plan pays right now, before any reductions.

These employees hired after Jan 1, 2007 don't give a dang about a broke CSPF Plan and will sell retirees out in a minute.

No, they do not. That is why we need to keep the clause in the contract. Does it need to be there for UPS to make up any cuts? That is up for debate.

But if the answer is yes, if it is removed from the contract at a later point, then, yes, we could be screwed. But no one can say, with 100% certainty, that it will be removed.

These young employees only worry about you retiring so the can move up to a bid route. That's the facts.

And we agree on something.




Do you see how to do it? You don't just disagree with someone.

State your side as to why you disagree.

And in this case, I believe your facts are incorrect.

You are welcome to rebut my facts instead of just disagreeing. This is how its done. But if you feel that you just need to click disagree, so be it.

 

[Ms.PacMan]

On pg 7 of the letter is the contact info for the retiree representative.

The retiree representative, who is one of the retirees currently receiving benefits under the Plan, is not a member of the Board of Trustees of the Plan.
Susan Mauren
(855)465-6847
P.O.Box 15670
Minneapolis, MN 55415
[email protected]

 

[reydluap]

Wow Mug, it only took you two days to find my post. I'm not going to copy and paste on every thread regarding the CSPF.

My information is from what's in print. The UPS calculator and the written contract we are working with. I showed everyone where the information came from and how to find out the FACTS for themselves. I didn't grasp hopes and dreams out of the mid air.

We do agree that is IF the proposed CSPF cuts take place, changes will take place. Either way, UPS does not pay a GUARANTEED full pension at age 65. They will pay UPS Pension time earned from Jan 2007 and the CSPF will pay whatever their benefit pays by what is written in the current contract (proposed pension cuts amount).

Once again, the contract reads: If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or required by law, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.

What written facts,laws, contractual agreement state any different than what I've posted? I provided where I retrieved my information. You picked it apart with just a lot of talk and dreams.

 

[UPSmechanicinblue]

Wow Mug, it only took you two days to find my post. I'm not going to copy and paste on every thread regarding the CSPF.

My information is from what's in print. The UPS calculator and the written contract we are working with. I showed everyone where the information came from and how to find out the FACTS for themselves. I didn't grasp hopes and dreams out of the mid air.

We do agree that is IF the proposed CSPF cuts take place, changes will take place. Either way, UPS does not pay a GUARANTEED full pension at age 65. They will pay UPS Pension time earned from Jan 2007 and the CSPF will pay whatever their benefit pays by what is written in the current contract (proposed pension cuts amount).

Once again, the contract reads: If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or required by law, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.

What written facts,laws, contractual agreement state any different than what I've posted? I provided where I retrieved my information. You picked it apart with just a lot of talk and dreams.

hope your wrong
https://www.mcguirewoods.com/Client...al-States-Pension-Fund-Reducing-Benefits.aspx

• UPS Transfer Group. MPRA contains a special ordering rule protecting participants whose employers withdrew from a plan but paid their full withdrawal liability and guaranteed the benefits of participants employed by them. Under the terms of its 2007 withdrawal from Central States, United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS) paid its full withdrawal liability and promised in a separate union agreement to cover any benefits reduced for certain UPS employees. Central States estimates that 48,000 participants would face no net loss of benefits due to this UPS guarantee.

 

[UPSmechanicinblue]

hope your wrong
https://www.mcguirewoods.com/Client...al-States-Pension-Fund-Reducing-Benefits.aspx

• UPS Transfer Group. MPRA contains a special ordering rule protecting participants whose employers withdrew from a plan but paid their full withdrawal liability and guaranteed the benefits of participants employed by them. Under the terms of its 2007 withdrawal from Central States, United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS) paid its full withdrawal liability and promised in a separate union agreement to cover any benefits reduced for certain UPS employees. Central States estimates that 48,000 participants would face no net loss of benefits due to this UPS guarantee.

http://www.pionline.com/article/201...pension-fund-seeks-permission-to-cut-benefits

United Parcel Service Inc. participants in Central States are a special “transfer group” category, created when UPS withdrew from the pension fund in 2007 and later promised in a labor agreement that its own pension plan would cover any reductions allowed by law for active or former UPS employees in the plan as of Dec. 29, 2007.

The UPS protections “are a positive thing,” said Ken P,

 

[reydluap]

UPS'm

With all due respect. I have read your link and understand your thinking. And yes, I agree, UPS will pay the full pension that you have earned (covering any possible reductions in the CSPF) until the age of 65. This is written in the CURRENT contractual agreement with UPS.

NO WHERE in your stated link does it state that it will make full payments FOR LIFE. The article can't make that claim, at any time, for this is in a supplemental agreement in the Central States section of the Master Contract. The UPS/TEAMSTER Contract agreement is only good through August 1, 2018, it is then that we can see possible wording changes of this "offset" paragraph.

But as of right now until August 1st, 2018, it still states in our contract that benefits split at Normal Retirement Age (age 65). Then, UPS will offset and pay their pension share earned since January 1, 2007 and CSPF will pay what we earned in their plan prior to December 31,2006. And, if CSPF reduces it's benefit, there is NO contractual wording in this contract that states UPS will make up the difference of the CSPF reductions at age 65 and beyond. It states just the opposite. Read this UPS contractual agreement sentence again, slowly..........:

If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or required by law, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.


I'll stand firm on my post until someone can show me by facts that SOME WHERE it is written that what I'm saying is incorrect. Please, Show me a UPS or CSPF legal contractual agreement that states our pension is GUARANTEED FOR LIFE (past the age of 65) and I'll admit that I am mistaken. I pray that what I have written and studied is wrong, I really do. I'm just stating what is written (or not written) and not reading hopes and dreams into these outside articles being published.

I'm not here to argue with anyone. But only to help my fellow employees out.

Read my post on this again. Think about it. Go check YOUR retirement calculator on UPSers.com, read our contract. Then you make your own decisions. You'll then understand where I'm coming from.

 

[WhatsUP]

The part about UPS making up the difference is now a Federal law approved by Congress in December of
2014 ?

 

[reydluap]

WhatsUP,

Respectfully,Can you please show me where in writing a Federal law that it states that fact? No assumptions, he said/she said, but true black and white writing in a law that states our FULL UPS pension is guaranteed FOR LIFE. Not till age 65 but FOR LIFE. I've read what posters here have assumed that a law states this, but I have never been able to find such "law" that makes such a claim. Thank you.

 

[oldngray]

UPS'm

With all due respect. I have read your link and understand your thinking. And yes, I agree, UPS will pay the full pension that you have earned (covering any possible reductions in the CSPF) until the age of 65. This is written in the CURRENT contractual agreement with UPS.

NO WHERE in your stated link does it state that it will make full payments FOR LIFE. The article can't make that claim, at any time, for this is in a supplemental agreement in the Central States section of the Master Contract. The UPS/TEAMSTER Contract agreement is only good through August 1, 2018, it is then that we can see possible wording changes of this "offset" paragraph.

But as of right now until August 1st, 2018, it still states in our contract that benefits split at Normal Retirement Age (age 65). Then, UPS will offset and pay their pension share earned since January 1, 2007 and CSPF will pay what we earned in their plan prior to December 31,2006. And, if CSPF reduces it's benefit, there is NO contractual wording in this contract that states UPS will make up the difference of the CSPF reductions at age 65 and beyond. It states just the opposite. Read this UPS contractual agreement sentence again, slowly..........:

If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or required by law, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.


I'll stand firm on my post until someone can show me by facts that SOME WHERE it is written that what I'm saying is incorrect. Please, Show me a UPS or CSPF legal contractual agreement that states our pension is GUARANTEED FOR LIFE (past the age of 65) and I'll admit that I am mistaken. I pray that what I have written and studied is wrong, I really do. I'm just stating what is written (or not written) and not reading hopes and dreams into these outside articles being published.

I'm not here to argue with anyone. But only to help my fellow employees out.

Read my post on this again. Think about it. Go check YOUR retirement calculator on UPSers.com, read our contract. Then you make your own decisions. You'll then understand where I'm coming from.

I read the contract the same way as you did and I never got a clear answer to the situation when I have asked about it. Which is a big issue since most of our years worked were before 2008.

 

[reydluap]

I've hunted on the internet for what was written in this said Federal law that's being mentioned. All I found was this article that lets you click onto a link. I'm not using the news article in any way except to retrieve this link. The 8th paragraph, with the sentence beginning with "But it is in the bill, right there on page 82.........

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-congress-expected-20141210-column.html

here is what it states:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1377518-page-82.html

This section of the bill states UPS WILL make up any possibility of pension reductions. BUT it DOESN'T SAY FOR LIFE. The contractual agreement states what happens at Normal Retirement Age. Don't read extra thoughts into what is written. UPS will honor their contractual obligation, but I don't read one word stating anything that it will guarantee the full pension FOR LIFE in this section of the law.

Once again, the contract reads: If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or REQUIRED BY LAW, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.



oldngray, I hear you, I've got over 25 years in Central States. I'll feel the pain too.

 

[WhatsUP]

Yes, that's the bill that I was talking about. The language can be misleading but I thought the Teamsters release a Video explaining everything.

Yes, I do find it hard to believe UPS will pay out for life for these cuts.

 

[Mugarolla]

Wow Mug, it only took you two days to find my post. I'm not going to copy and paste on every thread regarding the CSPF.

My information is from what's in print. The UPS calculator and the written contract we are working with. I showed everyone where the information came from and how to find out the FACTS for themselves. I didn't grasp hopes and dreams out of the mid air.

We do agree that is IF the proposed CSPF cuts take place, changes will take place. Either way, UPS does not pay a GUARANTEED full pension at age 65. They will pay UPS Pension time earned from Jan 2007 and the CSPF will pay whatever their benefit pays by what is written in the current contract (proposed pension cuts amount).

Once again, the contract reads: If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or required by law, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.

What written facts,laws, contractual agreement state any different than what I've posted? I provided where I retrieved my information. You picked it apart with just a lot of talk and dreams.

I don't post here everyday at times. There are days when I do not check here for a few days.

Your UPS pension is for life. Your CSPF pension is for life. While the contract does not say "for life," it says that it will not include any reduction in the offset starting at age 65 regarding your pension, which is for life.

The offset is the amount CS pays, which combined with what UPS pays, totals your full pension. They both pay for life.

If the contract said that the reduction IS included in the offset, then UPS would not have to make up the difference.

You are confused about what the wording in the contract means. Don't worry, you are not the only one.

 

[WhatsUP]

I don't know how much it cost for UPS to guarantee the full pension to 65 but UPS employees got less of a cut under the Central States portion than the UPS retirees in the old plan. Maybe to cover the cost of Those guarantees UPS pays until 65?
Most UPS people in the old plan received a %50 cut and
That's painful.

 

[Mugarolla]

I don't know how much it cost for UPS to guarantee the full pension to 65 but UPS employees got less of a cut under the Central States portion than the UPS retirees in the old plan. Maybe to cover the cost of Those guarantees UPS pays until 65?
Most UPS people in the old plan received a %50 cut and
That's painful.

It does not cost UPS anything to "guarantee" the full pension until 65. UPS pays the full pension until 65. Then the CS portion kicks in and UPS drops their payment by the amount that CS pays.

Now, if you mean what it will cost UPS to make up the reductions in the CSPF portion of our pension after age 65, well, it has been roughly estimated at $2B.

And this is not a lump sum payment. This is a make up $1000 for Joe, make up $1000 for Jim, etc, so that over the life span of the last retirees to collect a portion from CSPF, the total is roughly $2B over the next 50 some years.

UPS employees under the CSPF portion got less of a cut due to the law. Orphans were cut first, UPS pre 2008 retirees were cut second and current employees, retiring after 2008 were cut third.

The reason was that UPS went to Congress before the Omnibus Spending Bill was passed and asked for a concession because they were liable for any reductions in the CSPF that the Treasury Department authorizes.

And they got the carve-out.

People are surprised that it is as high as 40%

This is not over yet, by a long shot.

 

[reydluap]

Mug,

We agree, UPS pays it's pension for life. We agree, CSPF pays "a" pension for life. And even what you typed, "says that it will not include any reduction in the offset starting at age 65 regarding your pension" agrees with what I'm stating. NOT INCLUDE ANY REDUCTION IN THE OFSET.

This is how you are confused, UPS at the time of our retirement is paying ALL of the pension liabilities. When you reach age 65, the offset a.k.a. CSPF will start paying there portion. And at this time, we are getting letters stating what the pension cuts from the CSPF plan are POSSIBLY going to amount to (final outcome amount is yet to be decided).

I'll have you read this for a forth time, the contract reads: If the benefit paid from the CS Plan is reduced as permitted or REQUIRED BY LAW, the amount of such reduction shall NOT be included in this offset.

Once again, at the time of this pension split, UPS IS PAYING OUR FULL BENIFIT, not CSPF.


If CSPF was now paying our benefits and UPS was then joined into the wording at age 65, then your interpretation would be valid.

I see it as you are the one confused. I backed my statements on the facts presented and used your own quote to validate my point. I rest my point. I'm prepared for my retirement in full with or without a pension.

 

[oldngray]

It does not cost UPS anything to "guarantee" the full pension until 65. UPS pays the full pension until 65. Then the CS portion kicks in and UPS drops their payment by the amount that CS pays.

Now, if you mean what it will cost UPS to make up the reductions in the CSPF portion of our pension after age 65, well, it has been roughly estimated at $2B.

And this is not a lump sum payment. This is a make up $1000 for Joe, make up $1000 for Jim, etc, so that over the life span of the last retirees to collect a portion from CSPF, the total is roughly $2B over the next 50 some years.

UPS employees under the CSPF portion got less of a cut due to the law. Orphans were cut first, UPS pre 2008 retirees were cut second and current employees, retiring after 2008 were cut third.

The reason was that UPS went to Congress before the Omnibus Spending Bill was passed and asked for a concession because they were liable for any reductions in the CSPF that the Treasury Department authorizes.

And they got the carve-out.

People are surprised that it is as high as 40%

This is not over yet, by a long shot.

UPS already paid 6.1 billion so it was only fair for them to get credit for that.

 

[WhatsUP]

UPS people who retired under the New Plan will be getting about a % 20 less cut for life plus UPS is suppose to make up the cuts. So the UPS retirees in the old plan are paying for your life time extra benefit.

UPS was rewarded for leaving their employees in the Old plan. Something about that does not seem right.
If anything , we should of got at Max a %30 cut.

 

[Ms.PacMan]

It does not cost UPS anything to "guarantee" the full pension until 65. UPS pays the full pension until 65. Then the CS portion kicks in and UPS drops their payment by the amount that CS pays.

Now, if you mean what it will cost UPS to make up the reductions in the CSPF portion of our pension after age 65, well, it has been roughly estimated at $2B.

And this is not a lump sum payment. This is a make up $1000 for Joe, make up $1000 for Jim, etc, so that over the life span of the last retirees to collect a portion from CSPF, the total is roughly $2B over the next 50 some years.

UPS employees under the CSPF portion got less of a cut due to the law. Orphans were cut first, UPS pre 2008 retirees were cut second and current employees, retiring after 2008 were cut third.

The reason was that UPS went to Congress before the Omnibus Spending Bill was passed and asked for a concession because they were liable for any reductions in the CSPF that the Treasury Department authorizes.

And they got the carve-out.

People are surprised that it is as high as 40%

This is not over yet, by a long shot.

it's true this is not over...The reduction amounts don't include the haircut for retiring before age 62 and don't take into account future withdrawals (like Kroger).

The actuary who reviewed the reform plan for the retiree representative said the plan has a 50.4% chance of surviving until 2064 with the new payouts.

 

[oldngray]

UPS people who retired under the New Plan will be getting about a % 20 less cut for life plus UPS is suppose to make up the cuts. So the UPS retirees in the old plan are paying for your life time extra benefit.

UPS was rewarded for leaving their employees in the Old plan. Something about that does not seem right.
If anything , we should of got at Max a %30 cut.

What do you mean? In my local retirees got exactly the same amounts after UPS took over the pensions. Now it is big cuts for those who retired before 2008 but no change for now for those who retired later.

 

[Ms.PacMan]

UPS people who retired under the New Plan will be getting about a % 20 less cut for life plus UPS is suppose to make up the cuts. So the UPS retirees in the old plan are paying for your life time extra benefit.

UPS was rewarded for leaving their employees in the Old plan. Something about that does not seem right.
If anything , we should of got at Max a %30 cut.

That's not how it worked out though. The transfer upsers with less than 20 yrs in CS were cut about 70% and that amount doesn't include retiring before age 62.