Right to Work
- Thread starter BrownMonk
- Start date
There's nothing "free market" about the government nullifying contractual agreements between two parties. RTW is about as anti-free market as it gets, so it's baffling to see people who give lip service to such ideals supporting that kind of legislation.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Good Gawd!!!!
Where did you dig that concept from?
That's like saying forced enlistment in the US Armed Forces (aka draft) is an agreement between two willing participants.
RTW states are like today's Armed Forces - voluntary.
I'm sorry but that may be the worst argument I've ever heard.
How about when the US Government nullifies an agreement between the Mafia and the store owner that's been paying for protection.
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Except for the fact that, you know, applying to a job in a union shop is a voluntary act. Nobody forced you to apply to UPS, nobody forced me to apply to UPS, nobody forced @Gumby to apply to UPS. Being in the union is nothing more than a condition for employment, because the company and the union agreed so. Not too much different than saying you need to pass a drug test before being hired, or that you need to produce your driving record, etc.. Don't want to take a drug test? Great. You don't have to, but you're not gonna get the job. Don't want to join the union? You don't have to, but look for work elsewhere.
See where I'm going with this? The draft, and having to join a union as a condition for working in a union shop are nothing alike.
Except in that case, coercion is involved. The protection offered by the mafia is from the mafia; it's extortion, plain and simple. To the extent that unions have been known for violence, blackmail, extortion, et al. in the past, the government should put a stop to it. But if a union and a company agree that all new employees performing a certain job (in the case of UPS, package handlers, drivers, and other similar positions) have to be a member of the union, they ought not to get involved.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Believe me!
UPS doesn't want a Union.
That's just crazy to think so.
I'm sure UPS would pay 20 Billion to get rid of the Teamsters.
I think that's where federal law comes into play. It shouldn't be as hard as it is for companies to disassociate with a union (once the contract is up, that is) if they don't want to deal with them. But I don't think RTW laws are the proper avenue for dealing with it.
Dealing with government interference by creating more government interference isn't something that appeals to me. I'd rather just repeal the crap I don't like.
rod
Retired 23 years
That would be the end of UPS if that happened. At the very least UPS would have to ease up on their Gestapo tactics to get anyone to work for them.
Simple, I saw this comparison in an article.
There is a restaraunt. Many people go in and order their food. In a union shop, you have to pay for your food on the way out. In RTW states, you get to decide whether you just leave without paying. The restaraunt can't continue to pay its bills and provide great food for everyone in a RTW state.
Your info on RTW states having twice the amount of jobs is wrong. You should also mention that almost all of the states with the lowest standard of living are RTW.
extranatty
Well-Known Member
I feel as those many of these anti-RTW people have little experience with unions.
This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Also, it's restaurant. French.
I mainly offered 2 fundamental points because I don't want to get into the corrupt game government-union politics.
Know how I know you don't live in a RTW state? Well maybe you live in a bad one, but then you certainly haven't lived in a non-RTW state.
This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Also, it's restaurant. French.
I mainly offered 2 fundamental points because I don't want to get into the corrupt game government-union politics.
- You're taking money from people who made a bad decision and offer nothing in return
- Why would you ever force people to join a union? A 'brotherhood'?
Know how I know you don't live in a RTW state? Well maybe you live in a bad one, but then you certainly haven't lived in a non-RTW state.
Wow, the grammar /spelling police made an appearance.
Nothing in return? There are 3 main players in the small package delivery system. Care to guess which one has the smaller financial package? The non Union one(FDX). A guy that doesn't even finish high school and no special skills can become a driver and make well above the national average with benefits and a pension. I believe the RTW people should have to negotiate themselves and represent themselves if they have any problems. I wouldn't have any problem with that since the company is so benevolent. (SARCASM)
The numbers come from the US Government. Right to work states have the worst standard of living, except 1, out of the 50.
extranatty
Well-Known Member
When you say RTW states, I think of North Carolina or Arizona, both states I'm familiar with although unfortunately living in the NYC-metro area for now. And to say the standard of living is less there; are you insane? Clearly the formula is rigged.
In Wake Forest, NC 30 minutes from Raleigh and RTP (where the jobs are), you can have a nice house and plenty of land for $800/mo. In Phoenix, you can buy a beautiful house for $220k. There's no traffic in comparison, the people are laid back, and both cities are booming especially in high tech. They have bars in supermarkets for the men. Lived in Raleigh for 2 years, and in the 5 years since then, the entire neighborhood I lived in has been demolished and turned into high class skyscrapers. It's barely recognizable after only 5 years.
But you know, whatever, the unions are only signing their own death warrant as millions flee non-RTW states. Not saying that's the reason; but it's a symptom of the problem. People should want to join your union; why do you have to force them to?
extranatty
Well-Known Member
UPS wants a union. Maybe less for the drivers but definitely for the rest of us. It allows them to circumvent state law with a union contract. Just like all the worst jobs are union; there's a reason, and it's not helping you.
Work a non-union job and they're deathly afraid of you not getting a 15 minute break for your 4 hour shift and they make sure not to have you work over 6 hours as then they'd have to pay a $3000 fine for not giving you a 45 minute lunch break. These jobs also require a fraction of effort, 10%, as UPS and often pay the same to us Preloaders. And honestly, the benefits aren't that good at UPS, I still haven't gotten my Narcolepsy medication after a month. Somebody with no education can get a job that pays double and offers better benefits plus bonuses. Hell, probably better off on welfare than working as a Preloader -- some
ing union this is.Faceplanted
Well-Known Member
If unions offer stuff to people, people will join. Every driver in my building accept for 1 that I know of is a dues paying members. We get good benefits and good pay, it's only right to support the union.
Now to force some poor part timers to have to join in a non rtw state is absolute bs. Maybe if the union offered more than MINIMUM WAGE in many areas, the part timers would feel more of a need to pay dues.
Come to fl, there are tons of unions here, they actually offer good pay and take care of their employees, the teamsters are worried because they have nothing to offer 80% of the ups work force.
I have a friend who works in the BMW plant in sc, it's a non union shop. He does very very well, the pay is great for the cost of living, you get very good benefits, cars at huge discounts ect. How is that factory doing so good without a union? Because unions aren't the end all be all.
Now to force some poor part timers to have to join in a non rtw state is absolute bs. Maybe if the union offered more than MINIMUM WAGE in many areas, the part timers would feel more of a need to pay dues.
Come to fl, there are tons of unions here, they actually offer good pay and take care of their employees, the teamsters are worried because they have nothing to offer 80% of the ups work force.
I have a friend who works in the BMW plant in sc, it's a non union shop. He does very very well, the pay is great for the cost of living, you get very good benefits, cars at huge discounts ect. How is that factory doing so good without a union? Because unions aren't the end all be all.
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Faceplanted
Well-Known Member
Terrible analogy.
I get an immediate meal in the restaurant right? I leave with food in my stomach right?
Part timers get NOTHING but minimum wage and no insurance for a year.
If I don't receive my meal in decent amount of time I have the right to walk out without paying. why do part timers still have to pay when it takes them a year to get their appetizer (Heath insurance) and years to get decent pay
Does the part time employee have the right to sign a bid list after they make 30 days to get friend/t? How many p/t employees across the US from other companies get benefits and a pension while only working 20-30 hours? Our local has the p/t workers paying a less percentage for dues based on thier hourly rate. Isn't this a fair system? The most capable pay the higher rate. By the way, a p/t employee going to friend/t before a year is given benefits. We had a 3 mo p/t employee sign a driving list and got the bid. He got healthcare right away. The p/t pension is about $40 per year of service.
You have the right to walk out before you get the meal if you wait too long, but you still walk away hungry.
You have the right to walk out before you get the meal if you wait too long, but you still walk away hungry.
Faceplanted
Well-Known Member
Raise of hands. How many pt guys made full time before a year?
Faceplanted
Well-Known Member
We have guys who were tcd for 2/3 years finially become full time. Every place is different.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
RTW states have the lowest cost of living ... not standard of living.
Ask UPSers in New Jersey if they would rather live in Atlanta ... there are probably 20 people in Jersey applying for every one position open in Atlanta.
I paid $330k for a 5600 Sq Ft house on 8 acres bordered by a creek and my annual taxes are less than $4k.
It would be several million in New Jersey and probably $30K in taxes.
We have some of the best schools in the nation (outside of the City of Atlanta), excellent hospitals, art venues and museums, concert venues.
I spent time in New Jersey and Maryland ... overpriced crappy living and extremely over-crowded.
Living in a RTW state is a much more pleasant experience.
I will admit that UPS does not treat it workers with respect or compassion in Georgia but still a lot better than UPS treats Yankees.
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extranatty
Well-Known Member
We don't get the right to sign any union list until after a year. We don't get the right to a pension until after 5 years. Which management, who the union stewards serve, tries to fire us before we make 5 years. The average wait time to become a driver is 8 years. But this is all normal in a non-RTW state.
After over a year in, I was written up the other day over misloads. I've always have misloads, I can't help it, a combination of Alexia and ADHD both verified by multiple doctors and DNA tests. I read the numbers out of order, triple check, and misload 1 in 100. When I worked in trucks done by store or address; zero misloads. Then they switch me back to the HIN trucks and scream at me about it viciously; as if there's something I can do.
I hope you're not serious.
