UPS EMPLOYEES START NEW UNION!

[ok2bclever]

Frankly My2cents, I have to agree it appears it's the best gamble anyone with a long way to go towards retirement could make for a measley $150.

It beats waiting and hoping the company does anything for us.

Unforetunately, I don't see the financial advantage for those with just a year or two to go.

However, there are potential reasons beyond just the financial to consider.

 

[tieguy]

"UPS hasn't given any sign they are looking out for us."

Actually UPS has become a big supporter of pension reform. One piece of legislation they are pushing would basically seperate the UPS portion of multi-employer plans within existing plans. This partitioning of the central states plan would ensure that UPS money went to upsers only. This would keep retirees from other companies that have gone out of business from draining what we put into the plan. You really need to do more research on what UPS is doing before you make a blanket statement about UPS not doing anything to help. Your defense at this point of these leaking pension buckets appears to be to keep saying those plans are better than what UPS would have done.Pretty weak defense. UPS tried to proactively address the pension issue way before 97 as they saw these trucking companies going out of business. Each time this company tries to address this issue your union muddies the debate by questioning UPS's intentions.

 

[dannyboy]

"However, we are part of the gangrene.

What's the benefit for us? "

So you are suggesting that we all need to hang in there and see what the end will bring?



"UPS hasn't given any sign they are looking out for us."

Legally they cant. You are all the same in the blind bucket of the plan. Each member is equal and treated the same. It would be against federal law for them to come up to you and say dont worry about what is going to happen to you and your pension when we withdraw from the plan, we will take care of you. They just cant. The best they can do is withdraw as best they can with the union making the most money in the deal, and the members getting to eat dog food.

Sorry, it is just frightening to listen to the reasons given by plans like central states as to why they are so underfunded. Like the down turn in the economy, and 911. While some did lose some money, their problem went further back than that, and much deeper. Untill you get rid of what caused the problems, you will allways have those problems, no matter how much money is thrown at it.

IMHO, Jimmy is part of that problem.

d

 

[ezrider]

Feeders

Did I read that right? A wage freeze for two years is all it would take to allow the company enough elasticity to pay the exit fees and free itself from CSPF? How did you arrive at that number? It strikes me as almost too good to be true. But if it is true, it seems like very little sacrifice in the near term for gains for maybe all in the long term. I just looked at the website myself and I have to admit it's rather compelling.

 

[tonyexpress]

Ok,

After reading all these interesting posts (including yours) on this thread, it is evident that your "Devils advocate, get um riled up approach", is losing it's edge. Especially with such an important topic like this.

"It beats waiting and hoping the company does anything for us."

"UPS hasn't given any sign they are looking out for us."

Blaming UPS for not taking care of you can be an easy way out.

You've been with the company along time, it seems such a shame you don't seem to share in the positive things UPS has to offer. At least that's what I read in many of your posts.

As your buddy Tie mentioned UPS did try to get back the pension for the employees,only to have it made to look like UPS had an ulterior motive.

Now who do you think really has the best interest of its people at heart? I know, if it wasn't for the union UPSers wouldn't have such good wages. If it wasn't for UPS there wouldn't be any UPSers.

You are an articulate and knowledgeable poster on this website. I have done much more reading than posting myself.

My impression is that you always seem to bite the hand that feeds you. Wonder why?

.

 

[sawman]

Ezrider,
You read feeders statment right. But the two year raise freeze was based on a $.50 an hour raise. In the next few years our raises are higher than $.50 an hour, so it could take fewer than two years.

 

[sawman]

My2cents, WELCOME! We,re glad to have you standing with us. It's free thinkers like you that will make the differance. It's not a matter of IF it will happen, because I firmly believe it's growing nearer each day. The quicker we get the word out, the faster it will be a reality. Again I welcome our new brother in the fight for our futures!

 

[my2cents]

Thanks Sawman. Given the current framework and environment we work under, I believe this movement is the best way the rank-n-file can effectuate positive changes for the future. Can't see what the gamble is. Sometimes the biggest risk is not taking one.

 

[ok2bclever]

danny, where do you get it would be illegal for our company to tell us they would take care of us in this move?!?

tie, The only news on this issue I have found anywhere is the one regarding UPS limiting their liabilities, not ours. Great to hear UPS is trying to do anything for us, if true.

I lost most hope and respect on this issue when UPS didn't do the right thing and raised our retiree medical premiums because they could get away with it.

Don't use that crap about "honoring the contract" as I know for a personal fact that contract negotiation level Teamster officials told UPS that wasn't the spirit of the article and that they shouldn't raise UPS retirees premiums when it became known UPS was considering it.

They did anyway.

Regardless, if UPS is actually doing anything proactive for the UPS worker's retirement problems rather than just the company's liabilities it seems like this would be something UPS would go out of their way to publicize, at least with their workers.

Any links to this news?

te, well, the focus and leanings here are pretty narrow and so most of my posts tend to be as well.

You would not find any of my local managers that would consider me anti-company or "a negative influence".

At work you mostly get mouths rapping out how the company is evil or wants to fire anyone they can, etc and I speak out against that.

Many bitch about having to work more hours than they want or whatever and I ask whether they think the dude working twelve hours at the 7-11 at minimum wage, no benefits and no pension would empathize with "how bad" they have it.

Here on the other hand it seems too many go on about mother Theresa UPS and I point out that ain't true either.

No one agrees with the moderate when emotional issues are concerned.

I can live with that.

I will say if the '97 attempt to get out of the pension fund was anything beyond a good long term financial move by UPS rather than a "we see the future and want to save our employees", they botched it big time.

Outside of a power move during the contract that would have been a financial godsend for the company even if the existing pension funds did not get into trouble (I mean face it, all that money under UPS control?! a great thing and move for the company it certainly would have been) I neither saw, nor read any evidence that the company was looking out to protect us from pension fund problems.

At the time we only had two thirds the benefits that we do now so there is a solid argument that the funds might not have gotten into financial trouble if they hadn't been forced to match UPS's offer to all Teamsters.

In fact, I don't believe they had to, they could have added another classification, but that would have been a political powderkeg that Carey was not willing to do apparently. Obviously at the least the trouble wouldn't have knocked on our door this soon.

Making a separate classification bracket with such significantly better benefits would have been the best and fairest move, but no one ever said (nope, not even me) the Teamsters were fair or the best.

Realize, I am in strong favor of unions first and a realist that the Teamsters is all the choice we have (prove me wrong please APWA) to work with.

Back to the pension offer, the offer showed how much more UPS would give us if we went with them. It didn't have anything about how it might be prudent long term because the existing funds might have problems down the line (and please, nobody say it would have been illegal to mention that possibility because that horse is lame).

That said, I voted for the contract that year specifically to get the pension switched.

Because I had a crystal ball and saw this future just like some of the guys here are now claiming?

Naw, I was interested in UPS's statement that they were going to treat my part-time credit in full.

Regardless, UPS is a great company to work for financially, security-wise, one of the few who do the right thing in general with worker's compensation problems, overall have a more ethical management group than average, gives you an company image to be proud of out in public (can't say that about the Teamsters frankly)

I wear a Teamster shirt to State Panels and stewart learning seminars and proudly wear UPS labeled apparel out in public.

I have UPS caps, shirts, sweaters, two jackets, etc. and tons of other stuff.

I have one Teamster shirt.

That said, UPS is not perfect and I will refute that here every time.

Good enough?

 

[dannyboy]

"danny, where do you get it would be illegal for our company to tell us they would take care of us in this move?!?"

It is illegal for UPS to go to its workers and say"vote to get out of your joint council and it's broken retirement program and we will see to it that you will get everything you are promised and more. Just get out"

If CS goes bust, they either have to treat UPS retirees and non UPS retirees the same with the same bennies or cut them all off with nothing. Sorry.

Under our plan there are 7 differing levels of benefits, both insurance and retirement, each depending on what plan your company paid into and the amount needed to fund the levels of the benefits.

From what I have seen posted, did CS not have the same system?

d

 

[ok2bclever]

Where do you come up with this stuff? Who said anything about vote or joint council?

It has been in the news that UPS is lobbying and pushing for legistlation that will limit their liability.

I said they haven't said or done anything ( ok, at least that I can find, pending tie helping me out here with a link or something) showing they are doing anything for their worker in this regard.

You know us guys that management is always telling how they have our best interests at heart.

You said it would be illegal for them to do so.

They could tell us that they are (or even plan on . . .) working on a viable alternative to helping our retirement if or after they succeed in limiting their liabilities to the fund which would further endanger our current pension.

There would not be anything illegal in that.

Tie states "One piece of legislation they are pushing would basically seperate the UPS portion of multi-employer plans within existing plans. This partitioning of the central states plan would ensure that UPS money went to upsers only."

If that actually is being attempted and would work as a firewall for us and allow us to keep our 3 grand a year (approx.) even if the fund violated the ERISA laws and the rest of the non-UPS Teamsters were reduced to the $1075 a month that would be great.

If they are actually pushing legistlation like this there is nothing illegal about telling us about it.

I got to tell you, it ain't often I want tie to be right.

But this is the time.

 

[brownmonster]

Out of the goodness of their hearts they could announce that they will match 25% of our 401K contibutions up to a certain amount. That would show they have the workers best interests in mind. Might put a little more pressure on the brotherhood too.

 

[feeders]

Just a few updates for all.
Here are some answers to some of the questions on this board.
YES, we will accept our Canadian co-workers
Yes, we will accept all UPS pilots.
Yes, our corporate logo is ready, I'll upload the attachment for all to see. I have a prototype of the membership card, it is white with logo on credit card plastic.

The APWA has no prohibited re-employment rules, that will added to the New Look page. Its you life, you do as you please when you retire.

Also, some have asked what is our position if UPS offers a pension buyout? If UPS elects to pull out of the Multi-Employer Pension Funds, we would gladly say "HELL YEAH." Current figures floating indicates the penalty would cost $2 billion for Central States, and another $2 billion for the Western Conference and all the other smaller funds. Roughly $4 billion total.

We have stated from the start that we have no control over the assets that are currently in Teamsters pension funds. That is why we purposed a new fund altogether. One that would allow you to accrue a benefit level in addition to what you have vested in a union fund. In other words, drawing from two separate funds.

He have heard about some union pension funds that have a break in service rule. For example: If you worked for a union company for 20 years and left for something else, then 8 years later decided to drive with a another union carrier for five years to get in 25 years. Though you may have 25 contributory years in the union pension fund, they may try to invalidate you original 19 years because of the length of the service break.

This is illegal. Our pension attorney will be addressing this issue shortly on the website.

UPS however, if they elect to pull out of the Multi-Employer Pension Fund can pay the withdrawal penalty, then take out all of their employer contribution assets, and all interest. That move alone would save our retirees pension, as well as ours. Remember, the Teamsters are only giving us 40 cents on a dollar in benefits. Just imagine what we would have if we kept the whole dollar plus interest!

That brings us to the $4 Billion. Would you be willing to give wage concessions to save your pension? Ultimately you would have to decide. The APWA is your union.

We don't mention this on the website because we have no control over what UPS may or may not do.
But if they ask, we'll say "HELL YEAH."



(Message edited by feeders on February 22, 2005)

 

[dannyboy]

You know Clever, I guess you need to know where my heart and mind lies.

I think it would be a great tragedy, almost akin to the tsunami, if the CS went under and all of you hard working UPSers like me ended up with squat. Your lives and plans for the future will have vaporized. Of that I am aware. To have to work for walmart as a greeter just to make ends meet, and to get healthcare coverage, would not only be degrading and humbling for a once proud UPS man, but it would break my heart to see a freind that had put 30 or more years into working for Brown having to do that.

That is not to say, for those of you that aspire to that type of service after retirement, that there is anything wrong with the job.

If UPS could/would buy the pensions out for the drivers, that would be too cool for those that would benefit from that action. Just not sure how it would affect those that do not.

One thing is for sure. The pension issue was purposely buried under part time jobs for two elections now. And I know that the majority of UPS teamsters are part time workers, so they will cater to them just to get the vote. But we need to make pension reform a #1 priority this time around, and we need to start now.

Reform like ours. When you have UPS personel making up a majority of the workers in a joint council, and UPS funds a majority of the fund, how is it there is no UPS representation on the board? No one to stand up for us and our issues. The other members of the board take care of who they want with our money and there is no way to stop them? That is wrong. And several managment members of the board represent companies that are long out of business, so what the hell are they telling the rest of us how and what to do?

Carey and Hoffa both knew about the problems but chose to ignore them as local problems. It now needs to be pushed as a national problem. And that push ought to land us in a union of our own.

d

 

[tieguy]

"Regardless, if UPS is actually doing anything proactive for the UPS worker's retirement problems rather than just the company's liabilities it seems like this would be something UPS would go out of their way to publicize, at least with their workers."

Any links to news that it is not? I have consistently heard their objections to the multi-employer plan over many years. This company took a strike over the pension issue. Carey pushed a quick walk rather than take a chance on discussing it and losing that huge slush fund of his. Did you see any of the testimony by a UPS executive in front of congress last year? It seems that you now have gone to blaming UPS now that your union and the plan they fought for is all screwed up.

 

[tieguy]

"You know us guys that management is always telling how they have our best interests at heart."

If you are serious about blaming the company for this pension mess than that is certainly an interesting spin. Along the way I guess you choose to ignore the gross negligence and gross mismanagement exhibited by the union who clearly is supposed to have your best interests at heart.

 

[tieguy]

In fact Okie I really need a third post here to tie this up.

1) One argument you make is the company has not done anything to fix the pension issue.

2) When challenged on this issue you say the company has only done things to avoid liability or you give the old don't trust the company with our pension line.

3) I am sorry I really do not see you standing up and busting the unions balls for the crappy job they did with your pension in the first place. In fact I don't even see mild condemnation on this issue. This is the fricked up pension system your union fought for right? This is the fricked up pension systme your union told you required fighting for at all costs. Yet all of your posts try to turn this issue into one where you condemn the company. I'm sorry I don't understand your logic?

 

[brownmonster]

Think of the guys in these multi employer plans and what it would mean to the pensions they worked hard their whole life to earn. Is it their fault their employer went out of business. Isn't the Union and being a union member all about brotherhood? This is a tough issue. Try to get your teamster pension after the money goes to this new proposed union. Hard enough to get correct answers and amounts now.

 

[ups79]

all this bickering about the pension plan is just what UPS wants. Soon the company will realize that they offer a 401k plan. Soon the company will decide to dump the pension totally and offer a match to your 401k plan to a certain amount. That sounds fine but how many of you are even members of you 401k plan? Can you even afford to put into your 401k plan so that contribution can be matched.

 

[tonyexpress]

"te, well, the focus and leanings here are pretty narrow and so most of my posts tend to be as well."

They are only as narrow as your mind lets them be.

You have some of the longer more detailed posts on this site. Your quite the contributor. I don't think your limiting yourself because you think were all inept.

The focus and learning on any website is only limited by the lack of contribution. Honestly, I find this website, at least for UPSers, quite interesting.

Don't understand why you would limit yourself like that? Since nothing can be learned...why do you spend so much time here?

Certainly you can find a more challenging place to be.

/