SloppyJoes7
Active Member
Great. Right after this issue was settled, and we all agreed that you could not be forced to join the union...
What happens if you don't join the union?
- Thread starter SloppyJoes7
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Great. Right after this issue was settled, and we all agreed that you could not be forced to join the union...
As long as there is a U.S. Constitution no one can be forced to join a union in order to gain or maintain employment. Period. Just as you can not be forced to join the Communist or Nazi Party or the Rotary Club. Any language to the contrary in a Collective Bargaining Agreement is null and void and unenforceable. If you read all of Section 2, you'll see it even says parts of it currently are not in force.
I quoted the above sentence from Article 3, Section 2 to settle the question as to when New Hires, especially Driver's Helpers and Seasonal New Hires, had to start paying dues or Agency Fees, where appropriate. Thirty-one days after the begining of employment is the answer our Contract gives.
Jonfrum, like most non-members he's not going to read the contract and educate himself, but instead will rely on his childhood socialization, prejudices, and misinformation from anti-Union websites.
Sloppyjoes, I appreciate your effort to dispel any guesswork. I guess we can assume by your silence on the question I posed that you find no moral or ethical dilemma accepting benefits and a pension from the Teamsters (the Union which represents UPS'ers) after you retire regardless of the fact that you wouldn't have joined. I think you have more in common with the welfare and tax cheat school of economics than Adam Smith.
Since you supposedly worked at UPS as a casual, I think you would have noticed how laziness is not a problem and there is certainly plenty of hard work going on. In fact, I'd happily take all of the supposed 'worst' drivers and loaders UPS has and put them up against any other US company's workers.
Lets dispel a few myths:
You wouldn't even have a minimum wage if it wasn't for Unions.
You wouldn't have a strong OSHA or DOT either, nor would workers have protection to raise concerns without Unions.
UPS is the largest most successful delivery company in the world, even with having the Teamsters represent their workers (invited by the founder no less).
You might try educating yourself on the fair competition aspect of it, as our main rival: Fedex, has a special exemption in place to make it harder for their workers to unionize and still hasn't been able to beat us.
The whole 'reward laziness' argument is lame. Employers are responsible for creating their companies work ethic and we arguably have the best work ethic out there. What's usually passed off as laziness is more attributable to incompetent management and workers following instructions under threat of discipline. In fact, if you want to look for laziness at UPS just peruse these threads and see how many workers are complaining about changes that need to be made in order to make their job more efficient yet some lazyass arrogant manager or supervisor on a powertrip can't be bothered.
It was refreshing that you did note it only makes it difficult, not the usual myth: impossible, to fire the incompetent. Here again, read the contract and just like most contracts it has a 30 day period where management can fire you for any reason. So point the finger at lazy management who don't train and evaluate their workers well enough to let the bad seeds slip through. But I challenge you to find any company devoid of some screwup who should be fired but hasn't been, union or not.
Seniority is held as a value because it's rarely your altruistic scenario where the go-getter shining star is being promoted. Usually it's the kissass suckup or worse. It's also to protect those workers who have devoted their lives to the company so they aren't pigeonholed in some crappy job to promote the young and clueless. Your generation bought the "have 10+ careers in a lifetime" hook, line, and sinker and most will get a rude awakening after 40 when nobody wants to hire them.
I think it's time to wise up and burn your copy of Wealth of Nations. It just doesn't work like that in the real world. UPS has a 'bonus' system where even though all of our drivers out of progression are paid the same wage (slight variations in different states); a driver should be able to earn a bonus by working harder and being innovative. UPS castrated innovation by being draconian in enforcing driver methods and Orwellian with Telematics. Few drivers are able to earn a bonus and for those the days are numbered. We've learned that lesson well and most are wising up and forgoing the effort to earn a bonus and instead focus on more profitable overtime.
It's interesting how you continue to claim that Unions are bad for the workforce in general, yet cannot show any facts.
Union membership in the U.S. (public and private sector) hasn't been over 20% since 1983 and hovers around 12% now (BLS). I challenge you to show how Unions have had any significant negative effect on the issues facing workers today such as record high unemployment, expensive health care and the decline of company provided coverage, retirement security not to mention productivity, and corporate profits.
I think there isn't enough Unionism in America. Look at Ford: represented by the UAW. They made some bad cars in the 70's and 80's and it was blamed on the fat, lazy UAW worker when really it was poor designs and an inability by the U.S. auto industry as a whole to adapt to new environmental regulations. Now they top the J.D. Power initial quality list, the first time ever for a domestic car maker beating out Porsche, Acura, Mercedes and Lexus.
All of this without a bailout by the Federal government. So since all the blame has been passed around for years lets give some of the praise to that fat, lazy UAW worker who has put Ford on top. I'm definitely proud to say two Fords are in my driveway.
Sloppyjoes, I appreciate your effort to dispel any guesswork. I guess we can assume by your silence on the question I posed that you find no moral or ethical dilemma accepting benefits and a pension from the Teamsters (the Union which represents UPS'ers) after you retire regardless of the fact that you wouldn't have joined. I think you have more in common with the welfare and tax cheat school of economics than Adam Smith.
Since you supposedly worked at UPS as a casual, I think you would have noticed how laziness is not a problem and there is certainly plenty of hard work going on. In fact, I'd happily take all of the supposed 'worst' drivers and loaders UPS has and put them up against any other US company's workers.
Lets dispel a few myths:
You wouldn't even have a minimum wage if it wasn't for Unions.
You wouldn't have a strong OSHA or DOT either, nor would workers have protection to raise concerns without Unions.
UPS is the largest most successful delivery company in the world, even with having the Teamsters represent their workers (invited by the founder no less).
You might try educating yourself on the fair competition aspect of it, as our main rival: Fedex, has a special exemption in place to make it harder for their workers to unionize and still hasn't been able to beat us.
The whole 'reward laziness' argument is lame. Employers are responsible for creating their companies work ethic and we arguably have the best work ethic out there. What's usually passed off as laziness is more attributable to incompetent management and workers following instructions under threat of discipline. In fact, if you want to look for laziness at UPS just peruse these threads and see how many workers are complaining about changes that need to be made in order to make their job more efficient yet some lazyass arrogant manager or supervisor on a powertrip can't be bothered.
It was refreshing that you did note it only makes it difficult, not the usual myth: impossible, to fire the incompetent. Here again, read the contract and just like most contracts it has a 30 day period where management can fire you for any reason. So point the finger at lazy management who don't train and evaluate their workers well enough to let the bad seeds slip through. But I challenge you to find any company devoid of some screwup who should be fired but hasn't been, union or not.
Seniority is held as a value because it's rarely your altruistic scenario where the go-getter shining star is being promoted. Usually it's the kissass suckup or worse. It's also to protect those workers who have devoted their lives to the company so they aren't pigeonholed in some crappy job to promote the young and clueless. Your generation bought the "have 10+ careers in a lifetime" hook, line, and sinker and most will get a rude awakening after 40 when nobody wants to hire them.
I think it's time to wise up and burn your copy of Wealth of Nations. It just doesn't work like that in the real world. UPS has a 'bonus' system where even though all of our drivers out of progression are paid the same wage (slight variations in different states); a driver should be able to earn a bonus by working harder and being innovative. UPS castrated innovation by being draconian in enforcing driver methods and Orwellian with Telematics. Few drivers are able to earn a bonus and for those the days are numbered. We've learned that lesson well and most are wising up and forgoing the effort to earn a bonus and instead focus on more profitable overtime.
It's interesting how you continue to claim that Unions are bad for the workforce in general, yet cannot show any facts.
Union membership in the U.S. (public and private sector) hasn't been over 20% since 1983 and hovers around 12% now (BLS). I challenge you to show how Unions have had any significant negative effect on the issues facing workers today such as record high unemployment, expensive health care and the decline of company provided coverage, retirement security not to mention productivity, and corporate profits.
I think there isn't enough Unionism in America. Look at Ford: represented by the UAW. They made some bad cars in the 70's and 80's and it was blamed on the fat, lazy UAW worker when really it was poor designs and an inability by the U.S. auto industry as a whole to adapt to new environmental regulations. Now they top the J.D. Power initial quality list, the first time ever for a domestic car maker beating out Porsche, Acura, Mercedes and Lexus.
All of this without a bailout by the Federal government. So since all the blame has been passed around for years lets give some of the praise to that fat, lazy UAW worker who has put Ford on top. I'm definitely proud to say two Fords are in my driveway.
SloppyJoes7
Active Member
In no way was I silent. I addressed the issue directly. If I were a driver for UPS, I would likely not consider the union as "helping" me. I would think the pay and benefits would have been better without the union. I argued that your question had a false premise.
crowbar, you are incredibly condescending. You are rude, obnoxious, and extremely quick to jump to conclusions. While I think nearly everyone else here has been polite and courteous, you have gone out of your way to demean and insult anybody who dares to dislike unions. You find it implausible that anybody could actually be intelligent and disagree with you.
Because you have claimed to be a "steward," (which I've figured is a representative of the union), you have strongly soured me against the UPS union. You have admitted that you treat non-members differently than members, which by accounts in this thread, appears to be illegal. You even gave an example where you believed a man had been treated unfairly, then stood by as his "idealistic notions" were shot down. When it comes to your treatment of non-members, you seem to try and see what you can get away with, rather than doing the upright thing.
You have said that non-members are willfully ignorant and prejudiced. You have then encouraged me to burn the Wealth of Nations, which arguably, is the basis of the American economic system. What hypocrisy.
I perfectly understand that people disagree with me. The union wouldn't exist unless a lot of people wanted it. The driver I worked with was a great guy, and we still know each other by name to this day. I believe most members sincerely believe the union benefits and stands up for them. But if you're in any way representative of the average union steward, then I would want NOTHING to do with it.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what you have written but do have to disagree with one point that you make. There is no way that our pay and benefits would be better without the union. Also, it is human nature to work harder for those whom you have an affilliation with so, while all employees receive equal base representation, dues paying union members will receive superior representation. You would be naive to think otherwise.
Well pardon me Sloppyjoe while I take a moment of silence to mourn the loss of you and your kind in my Union...
I hardly doubt someone as intelligent and insightful as yourself will make it as a UPSer but keep us informed if you do.
Your argument is sadly lacking because you can't find one example where a non-union company benefits their workers better than a comparable union one. Time to go back to school junior.
I hardly doubt someone as intelligent and insightful as yourself will make it as a UPSer but keep us informed if you do.
You must have posted that somewhere else because it's not on here, or maybe this dumb truck driver just can't read well enough to find it.
Your argument is sadly lacking because you can't find one example where a non-union company benefits their workers better than a comparable union one. Time to go back to school junior.
SloppyJoes7
Active Member
I said: "But why am I inclined against unions? Because I think they tend to harm their members, their companies, their sectors, and the economy."
I think a sign of a wise man is that he realizes he doesn't know everything. He treats others with humility and patience.
The fool believes he knows all, and treats anybody who disagrees with disrespect and contempt.
A discussion with you is pointless. It's a shame that you are in a position of authority within the union.
SloppyJoes7
Active Member
UpstateNYUPSer,
While I may disagree with your position regarding unions, I agree with the second half of your statement. Thank you for explaining your position with logic and respect.
lovemyupser
Well-Known Member
My husband pays his dues. He didn't think about it until I said something to him. So I called the Union rep and had him mail us the info. The way we look at it is like this. If you want them to fight for your job then you need to be part of the team. Why should person A who doesn't pay dues get treated the same way as person B who does pay his dues. I am happy the union is there. The rep has gone above and beyond to help us. I even have his cell phone number so if I have a question I can call. When we were fighting with Central States to get my daughter and my husbands daughter added to the health insurance are union rep stepped in and helped. Central states was saying because my husband wasn't on his daughter birth certificate they wouldn't add her. But we have a DNA test and court documents showing he was the father. They finally added both girls after we told them we would take them to court. We are happy for the health care that we don't pay out of pocket for (my husbands body after a long work day does).
I could point to my record: the jobs I've saved, the more than $50k I've won my members in grievances over the years, the contract language I'm directly responsible for, the former scabs who after going before the Executive Board, paying their fine, and being reinstated in the Teamsters came to me and personally apologized for crossing our picket line.
But instead I'll offer you some advice. I think UPS is beneath you, as you have great potential. You could be on the board of the next decades Goldman Sachs, AIG, or Enron. Think of it: 10 years from now you could be living the life, easily pulling down a salary well into 7 figures. You'd have it all: the mansion, the yacht, the summer home in the Cayman's, the Bugatti, and most of all the Trophy Wife.
Then the time might come when Trophy Wife decides she'd be better off without you. You'll go hire a nice patient and humble lawyer. She'll hire a mean a- hole son of a bitch like me and take you for all you're worth. Then that bulldog of a lawyer and your ex-wife will be living it up on your dime.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
No one is "forced" to join a union.
A person who does not wish to be a union member is free to take the non-union job of their choice, and since over 80% of the jobs in this country are non-union a persons options are limited only by their education and personal qualifications for the jobs that are available.
The conflicts usually occur when people feel entitled to all of the benefits of union membership (seniority, wages, job security, benefits etc.) but do not wish to accept any of the responsibilities (dues) that go along with them.
The best analogy is that taking a union job is sort of like buying a home in a development with a Homeowners Association. There are many advantages to living in such a neighborhood; property values are consistently higher, the streets and public spaces are maintained to a higher standard, and there are rules in place to enhance and protect the overall liveability of the neighborhood. These benefits however carry with them certain responsibilities, which include paying membership fees and agreeing to follow the same rules that your neighbors do.
Now lets say that you bought a home in such a neighborhood. Lets say you paid your membership fees, kept your lawn mowed, kept the junker cars off of the street, and abided by all of the rules that you agreed to follow. How would you feel then if someone moved in next door and refused to pay the same fees as you? How would you feel if they let weeds grow in their grass, had 2 broken down cars sitting on the lawn, and played loud music until 2:00 every night? Would you agree with them if they tried to justify their actions by arguing that "no one should be forced to join a Homeowners Association" even though they knew before they bought that membership was a requirement for living there?
Life is full of choices, and those choices carry benefits as well as responsibilities. You cant have one without the other.
brown_trousers
Well-Known Member
You can't really blame someone for not wanting to join the union for Part-Time work. Over here starting PT wage is LESS than minimum wage.... Yes, thats not a typo... starting pay is LESS than minimum wage, and with no tuition benifits, and most of these guys they hire will never even see medical, dental, or vision benifits. I'm a pro-teamsters guy myself, but I can really understand the non-union attitude that some people take when asking these "right to work state" questions. And I'll have to pass some of the blame onto the teamsters themselves for negotiating (or lack thereof) the worst part-time contract I have ever heard of. Its easy to stand behind the union when they are representing your benefits (in your job category) and negotiating decent contract language for you. But they really dropped the ball on the PT language. And as a result, its no real surprise our newer employees don't really care about their union or want to even be a part of it.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
1. If this is the case, then why are union UPS employees the highest-paid in the industry? And why is UPS the largest and most succesful company in the industry?
2. If you feel that union membership is somehow "harmful" to you as a would-be member, then why would you even consider taking a job for a union company in the first place?
You are certainly entitled to your opinion of unions, and I respect that opinion even if I dont share it. If a job in the delivery industry appeals to you, perhaps working for FedEx or owning your own route as a FedEx Ground subcontractor might be more compatible with your views. But if you make a choice to apply at UPS...in a state that is not RTW....that choice carries with it the responsibility of joining the union that bargained for the wages and seniority that you will enjoy when hired.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
1. The union may have negotiated the agreement....but the membership voted to accept it.
2. Something like 75% of UPS hourly employees are part time....meaning they constitute a voting majority.
I agree with what you say, and I agree that part-timers are getting the shaft. As a dues-paying member in good standing, I have excercised my right to vote "no" on every contract offer since 1997 for the very reasons you describe. But I have no concern whatsoever for those who would complain about the outcome of a process they refuse to participate in.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Please explain to me how anyone could possibly be "forced" to buy a house.
You want to buy a house (or take a job). You choose to buy a house (or take a job). Some houses (jobs) are in neighborhoods (employers) that require HOA (union) membership. Others are not. As a free human being you must ultimately choose...based upon your own beliefs and desires and needs..... whether the costs of HOA(union) membership are justified by the benefits.
Wal-Mart, Taco Bell and McDonalds are just a few examples of the veritable plethora of job opportunities available for those who wish to reap the benefits of a non-union workplace. There is a blue vest and a smiley-face button just waiting for you... and you wont even have to waste a single penny of union dues to get them!
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
WalMart just announced that they will no longer be paying the $1/hr premium for working Sundays.
+1, saved me from having to type all that.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You aren't a driver for UPS, nor are you a member of the union. But you have an opinion that the drivers would be better off without a union.
Nothing wrong with that, everybody is entitled to an opinion. I am curious, though; what is your opinion based upon?
Have you actually taken the time to research and directly compare the wages, benefits and working conditions of UPS drivers against those of non-union drivers for companies such as FedEx or DHL? Or is it possible that your admitted bias against unions is getting in the way of an objective analysis of the facts?
As a 24 year driver and union member, I can state with 100% certainty that the union is a direct benefit to me and my family. A direct apples-to-apples comparison between myself and the 20-year veteran FedEx driver who works my area would show that I pay $900 per year in union dues vs. nothing for him; but my overall compensation package is superior to his by about $1500 per month. In other words...I get that $900 back by about the 3rd week in January and from that point on I am money ahead. And that is not even factoring in the overwhelming superiority of my pension plan compared to his.
Those arent opinions, they are facts. I would encourage you to research and verify them for yourself.
I am going to play a hunch here, and say that your dislike of unions has less to do with any actual facts, and more to do with your desire to try and get out of paying the same union dues that your coworkers are. Am I wrong?
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