What happens if you don't join the union?

[SloppyJoes7]

Thats not name calling? What is it then?

An accurate description that was well founded and within context. I fully backed up the adjectives I was using. I also wasn't calling everybody this. I was responding to specific people.

Name calling is when you say someone's "stupid," a "fool," "worthless," etc. Most curse words also fall in this category. In logical terms, name-calling are "ad-hominem" attacks.

 

[TR0LL]

It's like working for cash under the table, and receiving welfare. You get the best of both worlds without contributing a thing. Only low lives would go this route.

 

[grgrcr88]

An accurate description that was well founded and within context. I fully backed up the adjectives I was using. I also wasn't calling everybody this. I was responding to specific people.

Name calling is when you say someone's "stupid," a "fool," "worthless," etc. Most curse words also fall in this category. In logical terms, name-calling are "ad-hominem" attacks.

Using an adjective like that refering to someone is NAME CALLING, Try all you want to disguise it behind other terms. A duck is still a duck!!

 

[Local804guy4life]

Joining the union is a must at UPS. UPS regularly breaks every labor law under the sun with their management people. They reserve the worst treatment for what they call "Full - Time supervisors". The part time supervisors don't get it as bad and actually have something called PTRS which records their time and compensates them for it somewhat. But promotions are few and far between for them. And when and if they do get promoted it could take years and they are in store for a lifetime of abuse and pain. They abuse the piss out of their full-time management people. Let me cite some examples.

The Full time supervisors in my building the Nassau Hub work at least 12 hours a day, sometimes more. They are salary employees so they don't get any over-time. The manager openly belittles them on the radio and in person. Sometimes he even goes on the loud speaker so the entire building can hear it. I saw him openly screaming at a deaf part time supervisor for not answering the radio right away. Little did he know his hearing aid batteries weren't working properly. And I've heard it even gets worse during the management meetings. But in the interest of being fair I can only report what I have actually witnessed. I know I have seen three full time supervisors quit in the last five months because of the brutal working conditions. Also, a manager is still out going on four months now because of some work related health issue. With this economy that says a lot. The other full time supervisors with the exception of one(some young punk kid who is a compulsive liar) look like stressed out zombies. Old employees who have left told me the full time staff are all on stress medication and under a doctors care for what takes place. Does this sound like a place you want to work without protection?

This is not a union vs management argument. This is a quality of life issue. And what UPS does should be exploited. Sure in my building it's probably worse then anywhere else, but not by much. Rumor has it our manager is the biggest snake in the business. He tries to con us out of legit grievances, put the building on break to early, and deny us early start time and over-time pay. And then has the nerve to complain when our delegate comes in and raises hell. He then cries that the delegate doesn't talk to people the right way. He's not allowed to but the Operations manager who runs the entire district is allowed to threaten, harass, and belittle his own people. That's ok. It's a joke. From what I hear the Op's manager who is running the district is the second coming of Saddam Hussein. He will probably be featured on 60 minutes sometime in the very near future.

If this is the life you want go into management............ Good Luck. I'm not anti- management, I know a lot of good management people. I also know a lot of good people who were tricked and conned into going into management and now regret it. So this is why I take the time to explain what's really behind that UPS brown shield. And maybe one day it will be on the news. I encourage anyone and everyone who has a horror story or has witnessed one to post it on here. The truth should be known.

 

[hypocrisy]

An accurate description that was well founded and within context. I fully backed up the adjectives I was using. I also wasn't calling everybody this. I was responding to specific people.

Name calling is when you say someone's "stupid," a "fool," "worthless," etc. Most curse words also fall in this category. In logical terms, name-calling are "ad-hominem" attacks.

LOL, you're still here? Did class get out early? You seriously have some issues dude, most of which I would chalk up to youth. I only hope you show the same persistence and tenacity when you learn the America doesn't work the way you think it does.


Local804guy: Your manager is probably out on "stress leave" which means UPS is paying him to basically look for a new career. We see that a lot around here.

 

[TR0LL]

wait......a deaf guy has no business with a radio anyways......can't he bag groceries instead?

 

[soberups]

An accurate description that was well founded and within context. I fully backed up the adjectives I was using. I also wasn't calling everybody this. I was responding to specific people.

Name calling is when you say someone's "stupid," a "fool," "worthless," etc. Most curse words also fall in this category. In logical terms, name-calling are "ad-hominem" attacks.

Rather than continue wasting time with meaningless debates over who called who a poopy head first, lets get back to the original subject; whether or not it would be a good idea for you to join the union when getting a job at UPS.

Like you, I am not in a RTW state so the options here are either (a) pay dues and be a member in good standing or (b) pay the Agency Fee and save $5 or (c) go get a job at FedEx or DHL.

Rather than waste time on a philosophical debate, lets get right to the bottom line---money.

We have a handful of hardcore anti-union employees here and all of them but one choose to pay full dues. In purely financial terms, the free $25,000 life insurance benefit ($50,000 for accidental death) that is offered to all members by our Local is worth far more than the $5 per month saved by an Agency Fee payer.

You are not, and probably never will be, a pro-union person. You probably will have no desire whatsoever to attend meetings and vote for officers. So for you, the decision will be purely financial. I would suggest you ask the local that you would be required to join what sort of benefits are available to members in good standing. Then find out how much money you will save on dues as an Agency Fee payer vs. being a full member, and decide according to your own needs whether joining would be better for you.

As far as how you will be treated by the Company and by other employees....my guess is that you will not notice a difference. Discrimination against an Agency Fee payer is almost certainly illegal and would expose those involved to a potential lawsuit. We have one Agency Fee payer in our building and the shop stewards have been specifically instructed by our Local to treat this person with respect and to handle any grievances he may file in the same manner that we would a full member.

There you have it. Do some research for yourself and get the facts. Good luck with your decision.

 

[castor915]

I am not a hardcore union man myself, I do believe that unions are the lesser of the two evils.
I don't go quoting articles like it was the bible, but i made sure to protect myself by reading that book backward and forward.
I myself have been fired 12 times over random stuff and been threatened with write ups etc...... not knowing CSA questions, not calling in when I have option days, missorts in a truck with people helping me....etc
If your there long enough you will get messed with,.... plain and simple I make too much. Fire me and hire 3 of you, thats what I have my union for because that my friend will not happen

 

[JonFrum]

. . . We have a handful of hardcore anti-union employees here and all of them but one choose to pay full dues. In purely financial terms, the free $25,000 life insurance benefit ($50,000 for accidental death) that is offered to all members by our Local is worth far more than the $5 per month saved by an Agency Fee payer. . .

Sober, the calculated amount of the Agency Fee is is a matter of Law. Certain Union expenses involving negotiating an administrating a Contract, processing a grievance etc. are included in the calculation. That's to insure the Agency Fee Payor is not a so-called "freerider" by anyone's definition.

If the Union provides certain additional benefits to members only, like a life insurance policy, the Agency Fee Payor is not entitled to that coverage an so should not have it's cost included in the calculation of the Agency Fee. (This is a Union members only coverage; not to be confused with any benefits like pension, health insurance, or life insurance provided to all bargaining unit members in the Contract and paid for as part of their compensation package.)

In other words, if the Union-members-only life insurance is worth more than the extra $5, this means your Local is not calculating the Agency Fee correctly according to the Law and is overcharging the Agency Fee Payor.

 

[grgrcr88]

Sober, the calculated amount of the Agency Fee is is a matter of Law. Certain Union expenses involving negotiating an administrating a Contract, processing a grievance etc. are included in the calculation. That's to insure the Agency Fee Payor is not a so-called "freerider" by anyone's definition.

If the Union provides certain additional benefits to members only, like a life insurance policy, the Agency Fee Payor is not entitled to that coverage an so should not have it's cost included in the calculation of the Agency Fee. (This is a Union members only coverage; not to be confused with any benefits like pension, health insurance, or life insurance provided to all bargaining unit members in the Contract and paid for as part of their compensation package.)

In other words, if the Union-members-only life insurance is worth more than the extra $5, this means your Local is not calculating the Agency Fee correctly according to the Law and is overcharging the Agency Fee Payor.

Not necessarily, If the group rate for all the paying members($5) is a reduced rate that could not be obtained by the individual then it would be worth more then the $5 being paid.

 

[JonFrum]

Not necessarily, If the group rate for all the paying members($5) is a reduced rate that could not be obtained by the individual then it would be worth more then the $5 being paid.

In fairness we should compare apples to apples. If the Local offers a group rate, the Agency Fee Payor could compare that cost to the cost of any other group rate he qualifies for such as through his school or other job, or various other organizations he may belong to. Almost all organizations offer "free" life insurance and accidental death insurance as a come-on to get you to contact the insurance company so they can try to sell you a lot more insurance.

The extra $5 doesn't just cover the life insurance, by the way. It should cover all the Union-member-only activities of the Union as stated in the law, such as politics, organizing, etc.

- - - - -

For real examples of Name Calling see this thread . . .
http://www.browncafe.com/community/...an-43rd-st-building-and-manhattan-sou.336893/

 

[tieguy]

Joining the union is a must at UPS. UPS regularly breaks every labor law under the sun with their management people.

there have been some good well thought out arguments made for joining a union. This one has to be the worst. It would be like me arguing against joing the union due to the mob influence in the union.

 

[SloppyJoes7]

JonFrum, you answered my question before I could even ask it. I immediately wondered: "Wait, you get additional benefits as a union members, such as insurance?"

But your analysis appears to be consistent and sound. If members get more than non-members, then the agency fee must be adjusted accordingly. That makes sense.

 

[SloppyJoes7]

Rather than continue wasting time with meaningless debates over who called who a poopy head first, lets get back to the original subject; whether or not it would be a good idea for you to join the union when getting a job at UPS.
...
You are not, and probably never will be, a pro-union person. You probably will have no desire whatsoever to attend meetings and vote for officers. So for you, the decision will be purely financial.

Financial reasons would be a big part of it. However, they wouldn't be the only part.

The UPS union doesn't sound too bad, so it won't make a good example for my next point: instead, I'll use the teacher's union. I hate the teacher's union, (NEA being the best example). Again, my wife, mother, and mother-in-law are teachers, and I'm friends with other teachers, so I'm very familiar with the subject.

If I were a teacher, I would not want to be a member in principle. I hate 90% of what the union stands for, and would not want to be associated with it in any way. The weaker it is, the better, even if that means I had to pay the agency fee. If my wife got a job with a local public school, she would never join the union. We both hate it, and we both believe it harms students, harms public education, and is detrimental to our children and our country's future.

I do NOT have such strong feelings about other unions, and it would therefore depend on the situation. I'd probably not join the teamsters or other similar unions, and pay the agency fee, because that $5 I'd save would be $5 less spent on political ads and lobbyists I disagree with. Again, it would be in principle, because 95% of the time, unions support candidates I do not.

 

[soberups]

I do NOT have such strong feelings about other unions, and it would therefore depend on the situation. I'd probably not join the teamsters or other similar unions, and pay the agency fee, because that $5 I'd save would be $5 less spent on political ads and lobbyists I disagree with. Again, it would be in principle, because 95% of the time, unions support candidates I do not.

It is hypocritical to refuse to join a union "on principle" while at the same time benefitting from the superior wages and working conditions that are a direct result of the activities of that union.

That is no different than buying a nice house in a neighborhood with a Homeowners Association and then refusing to join the HOA even though you share the same benefits of increased property values and liveability that your neighbors do.

As a matter of principle, if you object to the concept of labor unions then the morally correct action for you to take would be to seek employement at a non union employer. To do otherwise is to try and have your cake and eat it too.

 

[UPSSOCKS]

In a nutshell...... If you want to give some of your hard earned money to a group of people that don't care about you, If you want to whine and complain your whole life about a company that doesn't even know your name, if you want your decisions that impact your life to be decided by the same union officials that are pocketing your union dues, then by all means the union is right for you...

I have one question. If the union is such a great organization, then why are all the union members on here always so unhappy? Most of you sound like you hate your life and going to work everyday...

 

[SloppyJoes7]

It is hypocritical to refuse to join a union "on principle" while at the same time benefitting from the superior wages and working conditions that are a direct result of the activities of that union.

That is no different than buying a nice house in a neighborhood with a Homeowners Association and then refusing to join the HOA even though you share the same benefits of increased property values and liveability that your neighbors do.

As a matter of principle, if you object to the concept of labor unions then the morally correct action for you to take would be to seek employement at a non union employer. To do otherwise is to try and have your cake and eat it too.

I've addressed this... about ten times, or so. Maybe list a list form will help.

I believe unions tend to actually harm their members for the following reasons:
1) Unions tend to make it difficult or impossible to promote exceptional workers.
2) Unions tend to make it difficult or impossible to fire deficient workers.
3) Unions tend to suppress wages for new and/or inexperienced hires.
4) Unions tend to suppress raises for new and/or inexperienced hires.
5) Unions tend to promise benefits that, in the long term, they cannot actually afford.
6) Unions tend to demand no pay cuts, and end up with more people laid off instead.
7) Unions can demand fees from employees whether or not the employee appreciates the union.

This list is non-exhaustive. It's only what comes to my mind at the moment. However, there's a couple major points I'd like to add: the effect of unions on laws and monopolies.

On laws: Union lobbyist support laws which severely harm the economy. These laws, I believe, actually make it difficult to get a job, bankrupt companies, reduce competition, and slow the economy. These lobbyists end up increasing unemployment, and decreasing wages of the economy as a whole.

On monopolies: Unions within monopolies, such as government employees, are extremely harmful. Because they have no competition, there is no check or balance. If UPS becomes inefficient, then FedEx will crush them. Therefore, the UPS union must be reasonable in its demands to management. Government employee unions have no such competition, and so can make all sorts of ridiculous demands, and get them. They get benefits and wages at the cost of everyone else who pays taxes, regardless of economic downturn, efficiency, or positive outcomes.

So, again, to summarize: I think unions tend to harm the economy and employee in general, so I would not appreciate their "help," so I would not be a hypocrite by any definition.

 

[soberups]

....So, again, to summarize: I think unions tend to harm the economy and employee in general, so I would not appreciate their "help," so I would not be a hypocrite by any definition.

Lets go ahead and assume for the sake of argument that you are correct about unions being harmful.

If that is the case...then why would you voluntarily accept a union job?

We both know the answer to that question; you will accept the job because it pays better than a comparable job at a non-union firm.

So your actions (taking a union job) are not consistent with your stated beliefs (that unions are harmful.) In other words...you are by definition a hypocrite.

 

[brownIEman]

We both know the answer to that question; you will accept the job because it pays better than a comparable job at a non-union firm.

Starting pay non-union Fedex Express Package handler ~ 10.20
Starting pay union UPS package handler 8.50

"pays better..." ?

Not by my math.

just sayin.

 

[UPSSOCKS]

Starting pay non-union Fedex Express Package handler ~ 10.20
Starting pay union UPS package handler 8.50

"pays better..." ?

Not by my math.

just sayin.

Teamster math is a little different.... They can't figure out the decimal points on their fingers yet...