Who is Obama

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Quote:
Originally Posted by moreluck
B.O. uses the term "economic justice"....sounds good, but....

"Economic justice" simply means punishing the successful and redistributing their wealth by government fiat. It's a euphemism for socialism.
That might be your definition, I don't think it's Obama's though.

I found this with a quick search, I'm guessing it's closer to what most people have in mind when they advocate economic justice: I'll spare a repost


Have to agree more with Moreluck that this utopian treatise is an intellectual effort to euphemize Utopianism and Socialism. Most important is that this is a Utopian idea.
Utopian presentations of this sort tend to be more allegorical in nature and generally accepted as a system that can not be implemented. Utopian proposals always, always fall apart because they operate on the premise that "People will do what they should do for the best of the group."


If you were to substitute pre-programmed robots for humans in this system, it will work with no free will and no aberrations in the programming. However, with humans as the participants, this system would disintegrate into chaos and a free-will system will eventually emerge as an alternative.
The closest analogy is the Bolsheviks and Maoist implementation of their socialistic/communal beliefs - it did not work… and they were not even Utopian in nature. Their initial systems broke down and were replaced by totalitarian governments that tried to eliminate free will but instead, eliminated motivation and incentive for their citizens.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
You know, in the simplest terms, it's....
"I work hard, make good $$ to support me and my family and you want to give my hard earned $$ to someone who is too lazy to work so he can have a good life too." That's B.S.

I'm not talking about people who can't work....there are already programs for them.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
You know, in the simplest terms, it's....
"I work hard, make good $$ to support me and my family and you want to give my hard earned $$ to someone who is too lazy to work so he can have a good life too." That's B.S.
quote]

And if you lived in a society where the government takes 50% of your wages at UPS versus working at a grocery store where the government takes only 10%, you may consider working at the grocery store, having more flexible hours, less stress and get to spend more time with your family.
P.S. - I've worked at grocery stores and may do so again after I retire in 2010 or so.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Please explain how you think this was what B. Hussein believes.
I never said that's what he believes, but I'm reasonably sure that if you asked him for his definition of economic justice he wouldn't say:
"Economic justice" simply means punishing the successful and redistributing their wealth by government fiat. It's a euphemism for socialism.
That sounds more like what someone on the right would say (and probably did, if moreluck's cut 'n paste history is any indication).

I included Kelso and Adler's definition of economic justice because it's a fairly common starting point for discussion. I generally agree with hoaxster that it's utopian to think that system could ever be implemented, but I like some of the basic ideas.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I never said that's what he believes, but I'm reasonably sure that if you asked him for his definition of economic justice he wouldn't say:
"Economic justice" simply means punishing the successful and redistributing their wealth by government fiat. It's a euphemism for socialism.

B. Hussein has said in multiple speeches that he wanted to use the Government to take money from successful companies and individuals and then in turn use this money for his social programs. The last time I heard this was during his speech at the DNC. There was a speech he gave a few months ago that he mocked the president for saying the largest problem in the housing market was the temptation of the Government to step in. Every speech he gives he proposes some Government control or Government solution to every facet of our lives. He always claims he will pay for these programs with the redistribution of wealth. I do not think that in any speech he has given he agrees with anything in your cut and paste job. Here is a clip from his website that some will understand the point I am trying to make in the simplest terms.

Barack Obama in Janesville, WI


Here is a quote from the B. Hussein campaign website. "From CEOs to shareholders, from financiers to factory workers, we all have a stake in each other's success because the more Americans prosper, the more America prospers.”

Here are a few other things from his own website.

Enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families:Barack Obama will enact a windfall profits tax on excessive oil company profits to give American families an immediate $1,000 emergency energy rebate to help families pay rising bills. This relief would be a down payment on Obama's long-term plan to provide middle-class families with at least $1,000 per year in permanent tax relief.

Wealth redistribution.

And here is a punishment for large companies. More wealth redistribution.

End Tax Breaks for Companies that Send Jobs Overseas: Barack Obama believes that companies should not get billions of dollars in tax deductions for moving their operations overseas. Obama will also fight to ensure that public contracts are awarded to companies that are committed to American workers.

Here using the Government to create jobs.

Boost the Renewable Energy Sector and Create New Jobs: The Obama plan will create new federal policies, and expand existing ones, that have been proven to create new American jobs. Obama will create a federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) that will require 25 percent of American electricity be derived from renewable sources by 2025, which has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs on its own. Obama will also extend the Production Tax Credit, a credit used successfully by American farmers and investors to increase renewable energy production and create new local jobs.

And here.

Create a National Network of Public-Private Business Incubators: Barack Obama will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. Obama will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country.

And of course this is the opposite of what your cut and paste article says is a part of economic justice. This alone will do more to punish the poor than several of his other proposals combined. You get a two for one with this one. Wealth redistribution along with a punishment of the working class.

Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.

I only picked out a very few issues on his site but one could say that most every answer he puts forth to any question is government interference and this is his economic justice. Wealth redistribution you can call it what you want. I know you think this is some sort of utopia but it never seems to work. The only true utopia is a free market.
 

tourists24

Well-Known Member
Also remember something that most people dont consider when taxing corproate America. In reality, there is no taxing a corporation; not in the long run anyway. They simply pass the extra expense along to the consumer. We end up paying more for goods and services.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
The only true utopia is a free market. Government is the negation of liberty

OH MY ******* GAWD! AV's DISCOVERED LUDWIG VON MISES!!!!!!!!!

"Elizabeth, It's the big one! I'm coming to join ya honey!"

AV, don't tell me you're reading Rothbard and Hayek too. The shock would just be more than my old 52 year old heart can take!

:happy-very:
:wink2:

D sending me links to Mises.org and now AV quoting him. I gotta go smoke a joint to make the world right again! Somebody got a hit of acid? Orange Sunshine would be nice!

:rofl:
 
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Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
OH MY ******* GAWD! AV's DISCOVERED LUDWIG VON MISES!!!!!!!!!

"Elizabeth, It's the big one! I'm coming to join ya honey!"

AV, don't tell me you're reading Rothbard and Hayek too. The shock would just be more than my old 52 year old heart can take!

:happy-very:
:wink2:

D sending me links to Mises.org and now AV quoting him. I gotta go smoke a joint to make the world right again! Somebody got a hit of acid? Orange Sunshine would be nice!

:rofl:

It's just one big lovefest in here :wink2:
 
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wkmac

Well-Known Member
There's a koan in there somewhere :happy2:

Keep it to yourself until I get my meds adjusted. The ramifications of the shock right now would probably kill me!

:wink2: back at ya!

Hey, you wouldn't have a roach clip on ya, would ya?


AH, Back in the Day!
:happy-very:
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
Re: cut & paste

If you can find someone else's words that get across an idea better than your own words, then cut & paste is just a tool to use. I really can't see what's wrong with it.
 

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
I like the idea that I have seen going around the internet.

Drug Test any welfare recipient BEFORE they collect a check ... Do it monthly!

If you need a drug test to work - you should need a drug test to collect our tax money we give to you on welfare! Simple as that.

B O Bummer would never come up with that idea.... he would lose votes!
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
I like the idea that I have seen going around the internet.

Drug Test any welfare recipient BEFORE they collect a check ... Do it monthly!

If you need a drug test to work - you should need a drug test to collect our tax money we give to you on welfare! Simple as that.

B O Bummer would never come up with that idea.... he would lose votes!
McCain hasn't floated that idea either, and with good reason. Who's going to pay for it?
Each drug test costs anywhere from $10 to $30, depending on what drugs you want to test for. There are just under 4 million people on welfare nationwide, and you want to test each of them 12 times a year? Just the testing will run you 40 million per year at a minimum, and who knows how much more for the bureaucracy you have to put in place to administer the program. I guess that's one way to create jobs :happy-very:.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
the $10 - $30 per drug test would end up being an extreme savings because if the results are positive for drugs the gov't doesn't have to pay out the monthly money to these people......food stamps either.

I see it as the glass half full, you see it as half-empty.

If I could spend $30 and get hundreds back, I would do it all day long....what fool wouldn't??
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
the $10 - $30 per drug test would end up being an extreme savings because if the results are positive for drugs the gov't doesn't have to pay out the monthly money to these people......food stamps either.

I see it as the glass half full, you see it as half-empty.

If I could spend $30 and get hundreds back, I would do it all day long....what fool wouldn't??
And who's going to pay for it? I'm sure you must have mentioned it somewhere but I keep missing it. You're not spending $10-$30, you're spending upwards of $40 million per year, possibly up to $120 million, just on the testing. Once again that doesn't include the costs of setting up a bureaucracy to administer the program, remember you have to pay people to actually conduct the tests, you have to rent, buy, or build a facility(s) where the tests will be conducted, etc. And you're willing to do all that on the assumption that you will catch enough drug users to make it profitable. Do you have access to a study that would support that assumption?
 
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diesel96

Well-Known Member
I like the idea that I have seen going around the internet.

Drug Test any welfare recipient BEFORE they collect a check ... Do it monthly!

If you need a drug test to work - you should need a drug test to collect our tax money we give to you on welfare! Simple as that.

B O Bummer would never come up with that idea.... he would lose votes!

I thought you were for less gov't to interfear with our lives.....

Ironically, middle-class and wealthy Americans and Corperate America also receive "welfare" in the form of tax deductions for home mortgages, corporate and farm subsidies, capital gains tax limits, Social Security, Medicare, bailouts and a multitude of other tax benefits. Yet these types of assistance carry no stigma and are rarely considered "welfare". Conservative Anti-welfare sentiment appears to be related to attitudes about class stereotypes about the poor. Racism also fuels negative attitudes toward welfare programs. So, simple as that, using this logic, we need to drug test everybody (including retiree's). BTW..being that children are large recipients to welfare, why not drug test them as well.:swimming::nurse:


OH MY ******* GAWD! AV's DISCOVERED LUDWIG VON MISES!!!!!!!!!

"Elizabeth, It's the big one! I'm coming to join ya honey!"

AV, don't tell me you're reading Rothbard and Hayek too. The shock would just be more than my old 52 year old heart can take!

:happy-very:
:wink2:

D sending me links to Mises.org and now AV quoting him. I gotta go smoke a joint to make the world right again! Somebody got a hit of acid? Orange Sunshine would be nice!

:rofl:

Sorry to be a BUZZKILL, but allow me to deflate your headrush if i've somehow percieved to have turned a corner. I'm still in favor a mixed bag economy. Here's a bad acid trip for ya ....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G6kf7XM9Nk&feature=related....lol..your still the man.:peaceful:
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
I don't personally have a study. No. My common sense tells me that there are high percentages of welfare recipients milking the system for many more millions than it would cost to eliminate them from the system.

Even investigating the fraud by illegals would return tons of money to our coffers.

I'm not searching cyber space, I trust my gut and I guarantee that tooner and others witness it in person every day.

Sometimes you do have to spend some money to get money Maybe the $$ could come from silly-:censored2: gov't programs and studies where they try to find out why ketchup flows slowly out of the bottle. You know the kind of studies I mean. Like environmental studies on some little animal or bird or insect that stops roads or homes from being built. I don't think we need to stop progress for some arroyo toad!
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
Investor's Business Daily
Annenberg Papers: Putting On Ayers?
Wednesday August 27, 6:54 pm ET
Ibd
Election '08: The Obama camp tries to suppress a campaign ad and university archives linking the candidate to a '60s terrorist who hosted his first campaign fundraiser. Is he being "swiftboated," or is this a cover-up?
When Obama's association with William Ayers was raised at a Democratic debate this year, Obama replied: "This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood. ... He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis."
Tuesday's release of papers from a Chicago school reform project known as the Annenberg Challenge shows once again Barack Obama has a problem with the truth.
The long-sought records that were kept under wraps at the Richard J. Daley Library at the University of Illinois, Chicago (UIC), show that Obama and Ayers attended board meetings, retreats and at least one news conference as the education project got under way. The records also show the two continued to attend meetings together during the 1995-2001 operation of the program.
Clearly the relationship between Ayers and Obama is much deeper and longer than Obama admits. They in fact were partners in various entities and regularly exchanged ideas, including on how to turn Chicago schools into re-education camps to create a generation of social revolutionaries.
Tuesday's release of the papers of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge were sought by the National Review's Stanley Kurtz, who had met a stone wall erected by Obama's UIC friends. UIC temporarily closed the supposedly public archives after Kurtz inquired. Ayers, who has long taught there, may have had a hand in suppressing the documents showing Obama to be a liar.
The UIC records show that in the 1990s, Ayers was instrumental in starting the Annenberg Challenge, securing a $50 million grant to reform the Chicago Public Schools, part of a national initiative funded by Ambassador Walter Annenberg, who died in 2002.
Obama was given the Annenberg board chairmanship only months before his first run for office. He ran the fiscal arm that distributed grants to schools and raised matching funds. Ayers participated in a second entity known as the Chicago School Reform Collaborative, the operational arm that worked with grant recipients. They met and talked often.
When Obama first ran for office, articles in the Chicago Defender and the local Hyde Park Herald mentioned his Annenberg chairmanship among his qualifications.
During Obama's tenure as Annenberg chairman, Ayers' own education projects received substantial funding. As we've noted in our series, "The Audacity of Socialism," Ayers, now a tenured distinguished professor of education at UIC, works to educate teachers in socialist revolutionary ideology, urging that it be passed on to impressionable students.
One of Ayer's descriptions for a course called "Improving Learning Environments" says prospective K-12 teachers need to "be aware of the social and moral universe we inhabit and ... be a teacher capable of hope and struggle, outrage and action, teaching for social justice and liberation."
The Annenberg papers are quite extensive -- 132 boxes containing 947 file folders with 70 linear feet of material. They undoubtedly contain more surprises regarding Obama's relationship with Ayers, one of many relationships Obama has sought to hide.
Obama is actively trying to suppress a campaign ad by an independent group that notes Obama's long and intimate relationship with Ayers. The ad is put out by the conservative American Issues Project (AIP) and financed by Texas billionaire Harold Simmons.
Simmons was one of the main funders of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Democrats cry Obama is being "swift boated" and blame that examination of John Kerry for his loss, not his less than swift campaign.
The ad factually states: "Obama's political career was launched in Ayers' home. And the two served together on a left-wing board. Why would Barrack Obama be friends with someone who bombed the Capitol and is proud of it? Do you know enough to elect Barack Obama?"
We say not nearly enough. As columnist and political analyst Michael Barone points out, Obama has left no papers from his Illinois Senate days. Nor has he listed his law firm clients or provided more than one page of his medical records.
Obama has tried to distance himself from Ayers, his former campaign contributor and foundation colleague. When asked in the Pennsylvania debate if he could "explain that relationship for the voters and explain to Democrats why it won't be a problem?" Obama's lame response was that "the notion that somehow, as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old somehow reflects on me and my values doesn't make much sense to me."
It makes sense to us. Ayers, a founder of the Weather Underground organization that bombed the U.S. Capitol and Pentagon four decades ago, wasn't just a passing acquaintance to Obama.
When Obama was making his first run for the Illinois Senate, Ayers and terrorist wife Bernadine Dohrn had Obama to his house for a 1995 campaign event. Ayers also served with Obama on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago for three years and made a donation to the Friends of Barack Obama in 2001
The AIP ad has run about 150 times in markets in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia and Michigan.
Obama campaign lawyer Robert Bauer has warned station managers suggesting their broadcast license might be at risk: "Your station is committed to operating in the public interest, an objective that cannot be satisfied by accepting for compensation material of such malicious falsity."
Bauer has also written twice to the Justice Department demanding "prompt action to investigate and to prosecute" Simmons and AIP for violation of campaign laws and individual contribution limits. The problem is that, as the Annenberg papers show, the ad is breathtakingly true and accurate.
The only thing needing investigating is why Obama is trying so hard to hide his past. Full disclosure is change we can believe in.
 
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