Coronavirus

[rickyb]

But you don't get to tell others how to act because of how you want them to treat you. You worry about yourself and how you act, not impose your sense of appropriate behavior on others. Your sense of the golden rule is hypocritical.

then what do you suggest if someone isnt following it?

 

[Poop Head]

happens to people every day. Guess everyone should just stay home all the time, then we'll finally be safe.

The only way to really be safe, is to stop breathing. Forever.

 

[Brownslave688]

Its there. But you need to read the numbers.

I realize that is probably too difficult for you.

The CDC simply gives the numbers. Most don’t bother using their brain to extract what those numbers actually mean.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

then what do you suggest if someone isnt following it?

What do you mean? The golden rule is different for everyone. It's how you want to be treated. I want to be allowed as much freedom as possible, and afford others the same treatment. If someone wants to blast their music, and I can tolerate it, I do. If you don't want other people blasting music, then you don't do it. But just because you don't want other people blasting music, doesn't mean they care if you do or not. You can't decide for other people how they want to be treated, so you can't enforce the golden rule on others. If you don't like them blasting music, say something, if they refuse to stop, treat them how they want to be treated and blast your own music. That sort of thing generally creates more problems. That's why laws are made. It's really not that complicated, you just make it seem that way.

 

[rickyb]

What do you mean? The golden rule is different for everyone. It's how you want to be treated. I want to be allowed as much freedom as possible, and afford others the same treatment. If someone wants to blast their music, and I can tolerate it, I do. If you don't want other people blasting music, then you don't do it. But just because you don't want other people blasting music, doesn't mean they care if you do or not. You can't decide for other people how they want to be treated, so you can't enforce the golden rule on others. If you don't like them blasting music, say something, if they refuse to stop, treat them how they want to be treated and blast your own music. That sort of thing generally creates more problems. That's why laws are made. It's really not that complicated, you just make it seem that way.

so what about interventionism? youre totally against it i assume?

our discussion made me look up stuff about crime and punishment but i didnt really find answers...didnt look up too much either.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

am i wrong? you said sweden is average in europe. but their deaths and cases are amongst the worst. what should we judge them by based on coronavirus?

They are average in Europe. I guess Europe was hit pretty hard. Sweden's done way better than the UK and Italy, about on par with Spain. I don't know what else to tell you. I can sit here and compare every european country all night for you, since none of the first few pages of google results will give me average numbers for all of Europe. 5800 deaths isn't a lot, considering what was predicted. If they count deaths anything like the US, the numbers are probably lower.

 

[rickyb]

They are average in Europe. I guess Europe was hit pretty hard. Sweden's done way better than the UK and Italy, about on par with Spain. I don't know what else to tell you. I can sit here and compare every european country all night for you, since none of the first few pages of google results will give me average numbers for all of Europe. 5800 deaths isn't a lot, considering what was predicted. If they count deaths anything like the US, the numbers are probably lower.

i dont understand how you can say they were average based on what?

when i looked up deaths per capita and cases per capita they were amongst the worst.

 

[rickyb]

What do you mean? The golden rule is different for everyone. It's how you want to be treated. I want to be allowed as much freedom as possible, and afford others the same treatment. If someone wants to blast their music, and I can tolerate it, I do. If you don't want other people blasting music, then you don't do it. But just because you don't want other people blasting music, doesn't mean they care if you do or not. You can't decide for other people how they want to be treated, so you can't enforce the golden rule on others. If you don't like them blasting music, say something, if they refuse to stop, treat them how they want to be treated and blast your own music. That sort of thing generally creates more problems. That's why laws are made. It's really not that complicated, you just make it seem that way.

isnt it better to suffer wrong than to do wrong? wouldnt that eliminate fighting fire with fire?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

so what about interventionism? youre totally against it i assume?

our discussion made me look up stuff about crime and punishment but i didnt really find answers...didnt look up too much either.

Interventionism? I know what intervention is, if you are talking about some philosophical idea, then I don't know, and I'm not going to look it up to clarify. Look, you treat others the way you want to be treated, others may do the same. The way you want to be treated is going to be different from the way someone else wants to be treated, so you will each treat each other differently. This can lead to misunderstanding and hurt feelings. This exact thing is why shared cultural values are developed, and why laws are instituted. People value different things, so there will be variations on what individuals within a society see as cultural values. The law is established to make it as clear as possible what behavior is acceptable and what is punishable and how. Just laws balance between people's rights and freedoms. Cultural values can influence law formation. But the fewer the laws, the better, if you care about freedom, and if you care about freedom, you voluntarily do as little to violate the rights of others so that new laws aren't passed to limit freedom.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

isnt it better to suffer wrong than to do wrong? wouldnt that eliminate fighting fire with fire?

But your suffering wrong means that someone else has too much freedom, according to you. But, I agree, it is better to suffer for the sake of freedom than to unduly limit freedom.

 

[rickyb]

Interventionism? I know what intervention is, if you are talking about some philosophical idea, then I don't know, and I'm not going to look it up to clarify. Look, you treat others the way you want to be treated, others may do the same. The way you want to be treated is going to be different from the way someone else wants to be treated, so you will each treat each other differently. This can lead to misunderstanding and hurt feelings. This exact thing is why shared cultural values are developed, and why laws are instituted. People value different things, so there will be variations on what individuals within a society see as cultural values. The law is established to make it as clear as possible what behavior is acceptable and what is punishable and how. Just laws balance between people's rights and freedoms. Cultural values can influence law formation. But the fewer the laws, the better, if you care about freedom, and if you care about freedom, you voluntarily do as little to violate the rights of others so that new laws aren't passed to limit freedom.

im talking about war ie interventionism and how that relates to the golden rule.

interesting theory. i havent read up on punishment in a while to know.

 

[rickyb]

But your suffering wrong means that someone else has too much freedom, according to you. But, I agree, it is better to suffer for the sake of freedom than to unduly limit freedom.

yea it is in some cases. im just saying turning up your music to blast our your neighbour for retaliation goes against suffering wrong isntead of doing wrong.

i dont listen to a whole lot of this kind of philosophy.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

so what about interventionism? youre totally against it i assume?

our discussion made me look up stuff about crime and punishment but i didnt really find answers...didnt look up too much either.

i dont understand how you can say they were average based on what?

when i looked up deaths per capita and cases per capita they were amongst the worst.

Ok, looked up interventionism, I was confused because we were talking about the golden rule. That is an individual issue, so interventionism was out of context since it is an issue of nations. In general, I'm against the idea. But I'm also not an isolationist either. Geopolitics is a complex matter, it's not always easy to say whether an action is moral or not.

As for Sweden, you compared them to other Scandinavian countries. I expanded that to all of Europe. The UK, Belgium, Italy are all quite a bit worse off than Sweden, Spain is about the same. None of the sites I looked at would give an average for Europe, and I didn't want to add up each country to figure it out. I did calculate a global average per 100k. The number I came up with was about 110 deaths per 100k world wide. Sweden is just over half that average, so to say they are among the worst is a giant stretch.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

yea it is in some cases. im just saying turning up your music to blast our your neighbour for retaliation goes against suffering wrong isntead of doing wrong.

i dont listen to a whole lot of this kind of philosophy.

That's the point that I was making, that's eye for an eye type stuff, which was dismissed as ineffective long ago. That is why the idea of law was developed. It's justice vs revenge.

 

[rickyb]

Ok, looked up interventionism, I was confused because we were talking about the golden rule. That is an individual issue, so interventionism was out of context since it is an issue of nations. In general, I'm against the idea. But I'm also not an isolationist either. Geopolitics is a complex matter, it's not always easy to say whether an action is moral or not.

As for Sweden, you compared them to other Scandinavian countries. I expanded that to all of Europe. The UK, Belgium, Italy are all quite a bit worse off than Sweden, Spain is about the same. None of the sites I looked at would give an average for Europe, and I didn't want to add up each country to figure it out. I did calculate a global average per 100k. The number I came up with was about 110 deaths per 100k world wide. Sweden is just over half that average, so to say they are among the worst is a giant stretch.

its an interesting conversation anyways.

Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.

coronavirus.jhu.edu

so here deaths per 100k they have sweden as the 5th or 6th worst EU country if you count andorra, and 10th worst country in the world. theres only one country that has more than 100 deaths per 100k and thats san marino.

 

[rickyb]

That's the point that I was making, that's eye for an eye type stuff, which was dismissed as ineffective long ago. That is why the idea of law was developed. It's justice vs revenge.

im gonna look up cornel west i remember him mentioning that philosophy of j vs revenge.

 

[rickyb]

That's the point that I was making, that's eye for an eye type stuff, which was dismissed as ineffective long ago. That is why the idea of law was developed. It's justice vs revenge.

so michael greger recommends wearing masks. prior to this i was just listening to whoever i trusted on twitter, and i did look up consumer reports.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

its an interesting conversation anyways.

Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.

coronavirus.jhu.edu

so here deaths per 100k they have sweden as the 5th or 6th worst EU country if you count andorra, and 10th worst country in the world. theres only one country that has more than 100 deaths per 100k and thats san marino.

I must have screwed up a decimal point somewhere, it is 11 per 100k world wide 5 times the average does seem pretty bad. I'll have to look into it some more.

 

[rickyb]

I must have screwed up a decimal point somewhere, it is 11 per 100k world wide 5 times the average does seem pretty bad. I'll have to look into it some more.

yea i was wondering that.

this is an interesting video ill have to flush with teh lid down, im usually too lazy.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

so michael greger recommends wearing masks. prior to this i was just listening to whoever i trusted on twitter, and i did look up consumer reports.

Right off the bat he shows data about masks filtering bacteria, and glosses over that fact by saying viruses. Viruses are so small that a mask capable of filtering them are too difficult to breathe through. Plus, masks increase the risk of infection to the wearer, so they are worse than nothing for the general public. Healthcare workers using masks are another issue, and I don't want to get into that right now.