Have you heard of the Orion System, what do you know?

[Indecisi0n]

ORION is being implemented in my building as we speak. The ORION team was introduced at the PCM yesterday morning and the basic concept of the system was explained to us.

They gave a great sales pitch. I intend to keep an open mind about the system amd give it the benefit of the doubt.

The next few months should be....interesting.

I did the same and kept an open mind when we started. It's stopped when they want me to make 50 k-turns, deliver two stops on a street that had three but to return later in the day to do the third, and told to take roads that take longer (traffic/lights) time wise because it was 2 less miles than the main road without lights or traffic.

You will see. Have fun!

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I intend to keep an open mind about the system amd give it the benefit of the doubt.

I am glad that you said this as your previous posts on this new technology have all been negative and your mind appeared to be made up.

 

[soberups]

I intend to keep an open mind about the system amd give it the benefit of the doubt.

I am glad that you said this as your previous posts on this new technology have all been negative and your mind appeared to be made up.

It is the company's mind that has already been made up, not mine.

While skeptical, I am at least open to the idea that the system might work. Tbe company, on the other hand, is not open to the idea that it wont.

The company has already decided that it will ram an 85% compliance rate down out throats whether it makes sense to do so or not. The company has already decided how much money it will save and how many routes it will eliminate using the ORION sysyem, and it sure as hell isnt going to let a little thing called reality get in the way of any of its preconceived notions.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

The company has already decided that it will ram an 85% compliance rate down out throats whether it makes sense to do so or not. The company has already decided how much money it will save and how many routes it will eliminate using the ORION sysyem, and it sure as hell isnt going to let a little thing called reality get in the way of any of its preconceived notions.

...and you are basing all of this on a 5 minute PCM? Let the team do their jobs before writing the system off.

Let me ask you this----do you think that you were a more efficient driver before or after PAS/EDD was implemented?

 

[pretzel_man]

It is the company's mind that has already been made up, not mine.

While skeptical, I am at least open to the idea that the system might work. Tbe company, on the other hand, is not open to the idea that it wont.

The company has already decided that it will ram an 85% compliance rate down out throats whether it makes sense to do so or not. The company has already decided how much money it will save and how many routes it will eliminate using the ORION sysyem, and it sure as hell isnt going to let a little thing called reality get in the way of any of its preconceived notions.

Did they tell you how long it has been testing? (Since 2008)
Did they tell you about the results in each site? (Gains in every center - Over 50 so far)
Did they tell you that it will be perfect? (it won't)

Yes. They have targets. Yes, its 85% following ORION trace.

I had an opportunity to see the results. It's impressive, but not perfect. For many drivers it won't work. But, for every center there were large gains.

The best advice would be to use the parts of ORION that work and use your own judgement for the parts that doesn't. Best of both worlds.

 

[upsmanclt]

Has any one seen a post Orion version of the 340 E Methods?

 

[QKRSTKR]

Has any one seen a post Orion version of the 340 E Methods?

You mean the new methods where your first stops is on the back of the 8000 shelf mixed in with other stuff. That you can't just sort the load the way you use to everyday,now all you can do is line up by sequence numbers, cause you have no idea what's next unless looking at Diad.

Upstate, I know you work in a good center, but wait till they take all your nice and neat edd order and jumble it all up, which they will. It sucks. Wait till they tell you to go this way cause its 6 less miles to your rte, but takes longer cause you drive thru town and catch every traffic light and traffic from the center to your rte. I don't have to wait and see. I seen the route I ran plus the other 50 rtes in the center.

I went from being scratch to maybe a little under allowed to .60 .90 over. If that's progress, ok! And that's with sporh being higher. Thank God I'm outta there.

 

[upsmanclt]

You mean the new methods where your first stops is on the back of the 8000 shelf mixed in with other stuff. That you can't just sort the load the way you use to everyday,now all you can do is line up by sequence numbers, cause you have no idea what's next unless looking at Diad.

Upstate, I know you work in a good center, but wait till they take all your nice and neat edd order and jumble it all up, which they will. It sucks. Wait till they tell you to go this way cause its 6 less miles to your rte, but takes longer cause you drive thru town and catch every traffic light and traffic from the center to your rte. I don't have to wait and see. I seen the route I ran plus the other 50 rtes in the center.

I went from being scratch to maybe a little under allowed to .60 .90 over. If that's progress, ok! And that's with sporh being higher. Thank God I'm outta there.

Was that a no?

 

[soberups]

...and you are basing all of this on a 5 minute PCM? Let the team do their jobs before writing the system off.

I'm not basing it on a 5 minute PCM.

I'm basing it on observing and experiencing firsthand every new piece of technology that the company has implemented for the last 26 years.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I'm not basing it on a 5 minute PCM.

I'm basing it on observing and experiencing firsthand every new piece of technology that the company has implemented for the last 26 years.

I couldn't help but notice that you didn't answer my question so I will ask it again----do you think that you were a more efficient driver before or after PAS/EDD?

 

[soberups]

Let me ask you this----do you think that you were a more efficient driver before or after PAS/EDD was implemented?

I am a more efficient driver with PAS/EDD for the simple reason that it allows me to see...in theory at least...what is loaded in my car and where I can find it.

I currently average about 40% compliance with PAS/EDD. If I followed it anything close to 100% I would run out of fuel at 10:00 at night with half my pickup route and several undelivered businesses left to be done.

The system itself is an excellent idea and I give UPS credit for creating it. The problem lies in (a) its flawed implementation and (b) the unrealistic expectations that are attached to it. My suspicion is that ORION will be no different.

 

[soberups]

Did they tell you how long it has been testing? (Since 2008)
Did they tell you about the results in each site? (Gains in every center - Over 50 so far)
Did they tell you that it will be perfect? (it won't)

Yes. They have targets. Yes, its 85% following ORION trace.

.

P-man

What you euphamistically refer to as a "target" will, in reality, be a mandate.

My prediction...based upon 26 years of watching UPS implement new technology and new programs...is that many of the efficiency gains that could theoretically be gained thru ORION will be negated when we blindly and idiotically chase the 85% "target" that comes with it. We are UPS, and when we get told to chase a number we get downright stupid about it. We will chase that number right off of a cliff, and then we will get up the next morning and do it again.

We are scheduled to go live by the end of the summer. If I am wrong about this, I will post a retraction here. I truly hope I am wrong. I dont think I will be.

 

[pretzel_man]

And we are actually paying a salary to the idiots who created this system? We need to keep that fact in mind this summer when contract talks get really intense and the company starts whining about its "union cost disadvantage" vs. the competition. Get real, how much $$ are we wasting on garbage like this?

The system that was created by the idiots has saved money in every installation so far.

I guess every system that is not perfect is created by an idiot?

 

[pretzel_man]

P-man

What you euphamistically refer to as a "target" will, in reality, be a mandate.

My prediction...based upon 26 years of watching UPS implement new technology and new programs...is that many of the efficiency gains that could theoretically be gained thru ORION will be negated when we blindly and idiotically chase the 85% "target" that comes with it. We are UPS, and when we get told to chase a number we get downright stupid about it. We will chase that number right off of a cliff, and then we will get up the next morning and do it again.

We are scheduled to go live by the end of the summer. If I am wrong about this, I will post a retraction here. I truly hope I am wrong. I dont think I will be.

Sober,

The truth is that you WILL find something to complain about with ORION. Guaranteed. Its not perfect.


Every negative thing I've read here is true. To an extend. I've heard these from drivers I've spoken with, and I spoke with a lot. But these things are only part of the story.

I saw some reports recently. The average that the current centers are following trace is about 82%. They also have reduced miles a lot.

If you follow trace today at 40%, ORION may have a problem. That is for sure. You either have a horrible trace setup or you are making decisions similar to ORION. If its the former, ORION will NOT work. If it's the latter, then ORION won't find savings on your route.

I had a chance to go on an "ORION ride". I saw it in action. Again, not perfect, but very good.

You are right. It will come down to implementation (like everything else). If your stance is that you will either follow ORION 100% or ignore it then there is no chance it will work for you (that is also unfortunate).

No system UPS (or anyone else) has deployed is perfect. On the other hand, these systems HAVE absolutely improved productivity. It's measurable. They have also allowed UPS to offer services like:

- Delivery Intercept
- MyChoice
- Smart Pickup
- Quantum View

Sounds like the teiam in your building at least your team took the time to explain what they are doing. Hardly stealth work being done in a cubicle.

Good luck with the implementation.

 

[soberups]

I had an opportunity to see the results. It's impressive, but not perfect. For many drivers it won't work. But, for every center there were large gains.

The best advice would be to use the parts of ORION that work and use your own judgement for the parts that doesn't. Best of both worlds.

I plan on taking your advice, although I can already tell you that I will have to fight with my management team in order to do it.

I spent some time yesterday talking to the ORION project manager in my building. He's a sharp guy with decades of UPS experience. In my opinion, he could make ORION succeed IF...

(a) He is given adequate time and resources to do it properly (doubtful)

(b) The center team is empowered and given the resources to make updates and correct flaws once the ORION team is gone (doubtful)

(c) The expectations placed upon the center team regarding ORION compliance are realistic (doubtful).


The two major flaws I see with ORION are

(1) It is predicated upon the assumption that the fastest and most efficient way to run a delivery/pickup route is to simply "connect the dots" using the shortest travel path between consecutive points. This assumption is valid if you are in an arcade playing Pac Man, but it is NOT valid when you are driving a package car in the real world.

(2) In my center at least, the ORION program is being installed over the top of a PAS/EDD system that is deeply and fundamentally flawed. Our center was relooped for PAS in 2004. The relooping was an utter failure. This failure was compounded a year later when IE forced an unwanted and unneeded satellite center down our throat, the logistics of which made the bad loops in he affected areas even worse. Then, in 2010, our building consolidated from 3 centers down to 2, which eliminated the arbitrary loop boundaries that PAS/EDD was originally based upon. The result...is a PAS/EDD system which is basically one big chaotic pile of patches, work-arounds and Band-Aids. Basing an ORION system upon all this is akin to hanging new siding and windows and gutters on a house with a crooked and rotten foundation. It will look pretty from the outside but none of the floors will be level.

 

[soberups]

You are right. It will come down to implementation (like everything else). If your stance is that you will either follow ORION 100% or ignore it then there is no chance it will work for you (that is also unfortunate).

You misunderstand me. Allow me to clarify.

My stance is that, ORION or no ORION, I will continue showing up to work every day and doing the job in the most efficient manner possible based upon my 25 years of driving experience and 17 years of knowledge of my particular delivery area.

If ORION allows me to improve upon this, great. If it doesnt, oh well.

What I will NOT do...is to make manifestly stupid and counterproductive decisions solely for the purpose of generating an 85% compliance metric. If I am continually harassed over the 85% number, my response will be be to shut my brain off and go into "robot" mode, give them 100%, and allow the consequences of that 100% to guide their future decision making. If they want a robot, they will get 100%. If they want a smart and productive driver, they will get whatever percentage I deem necessary on that particular day. Generating an arbitrary number in order to placate some bean counter is not something I have the time, energy or willingess to do.

 

[soberups]

The system that was created by the idiots has saved money in every installation so far.

I guess every system that is not perfect is created by an idiot?

You are taking my quote out of context. Please reread the entire post.

I was quoting and responding to a driver who is being told by ORION to deliver both sides of a highway, make multiple left turns against traffic, wait at lights etc. in order to "save miles."

Only an idiot would expect a driver to do this in order to generate a compliance metric, and only an idiot would implement such a system without creating a mechanism for addressing and correcting such obvious flaws.

 

[QKRSTKR]

Was that a no?

No. Have you?

 

[upsmanclt]

No. Have you?

No. You have Orion, yes? Have you asked for an updated print out of the 340 E Methods that include Orion? I am curious as to how this hunting for a package is reconciled within the "methods." When we got the remotes no one knew the correct method for using the fob, finally I ask my center manager for an updated print out of the methods. The union harps follow the methods, but when there are changes like orion or the remotes, how many of us actually get the correct training and the printed material to review.

 

[QKRSTKR]

I will say this about the 85% trace. It's not like normal pass/edd. In old pass/edd, anytime you went from a higher seq. number back to a lower one that was a break in trace. With Orion It's not like that. Here's an example:

If your next 20 stops are on say the same street, you can run those stops anyway you like and it won't be a break. You could go from 3000 anystreet to 2100 back to 2900 then 2200 and so on. It doesn't recognize high low. If you have 8 stops on the same residential street, and Orion has you going low to high, and you run them high to low, it's not a break.

I ran Orion 100% once. Not a great idea, but I wanted to see. It sucked. But I was running in the 90% range all the time. With I think 93% being the lowest. That's with breaking when I needed to. Out of a 100 stops, 15 breaks is 85%. How many drivers go out with a 100 stops? Not many. So you can break quite a bit and still do it. The problem I have is like I posted before. 3 stops together on a residential street same block, and it splits them somehow. They even had the same seq number. How the hell does it split 2417, 2414, and 2413 of the same street? That's one I remember. Had me coming back to 2413 like 6 stops later. Wtf. That's a big flaw.