Herman Cain

UPS Lifer

Well-Known Member
I understand you were talking to mac, but it raises questions that I would ask. You certainly do infer a belief in America, or any other corporatist represntative democracy (America primarily) if you insist there be a president, a congress, top-down political structure built upon lies, greed, manipulation. etc You are assuming that everyone who wants to share a valid opinion, MUST vote, and to be under the thumb of the gov't and state and be ruled by extremely rich, powerful tyrants . I cannot agree and will not vote and contribute to that mindset, personally.

I believe in the system that the Founding Fathers set up. There is plenty of room to amend the constitution if it is warranted and the majority of Americans agree. I may be wrong and you can correct me but you are inferring that the only other way to change it is through anarchy and I do not believe that is necessary.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I believe in the system that the Founding Fathers set up. There is plenty of room to amend the constitution if it is warranted and the majority of Americans agree. I may be wrong and you can correct me but you are inferring that the only other way to change it is through anarchy and I do not believe that is necessary.

Lifer,

I did not see your post and the question to me on Friday as about the time you posted it I had left for work. By Saturday morning when I posted a quick reply to Sleeve and my Vote for Nobody, your post was about 1 1/2 pages back, mostly a back and forth between Moreluck and Klein and to be honest I wasn't going to wade back through that. Since then I've been busy elsewhere so there you go.

On the one hand, you asserted in the original post that I would just ignore you but I guess you never gave thought that I might not see the question to begin with.

If I were President? I'd do all I could to abolish the office to begin with. For starters, I'm not a believer in the unitary executive doctrine. John Dean in his book Broken Government said this about the Unitary Executive theory,

In its most extreme form, unitary executive theory can mean that neither Congress nor the federal courts can tell the President what to do or how to do it, particularly regarding national security matters.

and I believe if not before, we reached that point with Bush and even more solidified now. Even Congress who has sole constitutional authority on all matters of spending and taxation defer their duty to the President and await that office to give a national budget that sets both spending and taxation. Congress in that respect stands as a puppet IMO and the last thing it wants to do if follow the Constitution and it's Article 1 duties. Even worse are on the one hand people who say that gov't should be limited in it's size and scope and some even use free market rhetoric and yet they turn right around and scream about the sorrow job that Obama has done because, "he's not creating jobs and stimulating business activity and growth." The gov't should play no roll in the economy whatsoever, they should stay out of it and that includes all form and manner of actions of intervention. Just as gov't shouldn't be taking my money from me at the point of a gun to give to one side of the economic spectrum in the form of welfare subsidy, neither should it do the same for the otherside of the spectrum in the form of corp. welfare and subsidy and yes that includes all manner of subsidy to UPS. If UPS can't sustain itself without taking 1 penny of stolen money in the form of tax dollars from someone else, we all deserve to lose our jobs and go find something else of a more honest labor.

At the least, if I were in charge for a day, I'd abolish the Constitution to begin with and return to the Articles of Confederation.

On a broader answer, there are numerous possible solutions but here are some to consider:

Theory of Multi-Gov't or a form of Panarchy

The theory of Multigovernment envisions the creation of coexisting governments within the confines of existing countries. Governments will exist for their function - serving people - not by virtue of the fact that they occupy land mass. These coexisting sovereigns motivated by competition, will represent the most efficient organizations devised by man.
Theory is defined as a direction of action based on principles verified by observation and thought. Each group of individuals has common concepts that hold them together. All states are guided by a political theory. The fact that a theory has never been developed, or accepted, is obviously no criterion that it will not work.
The theory of Multigovernment is based on six principles:
1. Each man's needs and desires for government are different.
2. The individual should decide for himself the government he wants to serve him.
3. Where man lives (geographical boundaries) should not be the determining factor of which government he belongs to.
4. Various governments can, and ought to, coexist in the same location.
5. Governments compete for membership with services, economies, or ideologies.
6. Man may belong to no government at all.​

There is also Market Anarchism that differs widely but agrees generally all that the gov't does can be addressed by market action using voluntary and self organizing action among people. And then there is Voluntaryism which could almost be infinite in how it would organize society and market actions. There is also what is called mutualism or what some called socialism absent the nationstate form which also adopts an individualist, absolute free market framework. In the 19th century, Benjamin Tucker was a leading advocate of this model and he was often described as an "unterrified Jeffersonian democrat."

When it comes to the term free market, I personally see society and market actions as one and the same but others are free to see it different and they should be. Why should an organization be granted a monopoly of force and then force others to see things this way or that? That goes straight to the heart of the concept of the "right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

As for voting, this covers several ideals also. I believe in the Non-Aggression Axiom and on some level voting violates that principle and those who win and election in elect use gov't to force those in the minority to do what they may not do if left to voluntary action. The threat of force must be used to gain acceptance and compliance. The elective process is also described by the great H.L. Mencken in more direct terms that aren't as tasteful when seen as they really are.

A good politician is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar.

When a new source of taxation is found it never means, in practice, that the old source is abandoned. It merely means that the politicians have two ways of milking the taxpayer where they had one before.



If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner.



I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.



Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.


From election to election, from party change to party change very little really differs so IMO voting for a democrat or republican is a complete waste of time and I've not voted for one in a Presidential election since 1980' when I voted for Reagan. Thinking he was a paleo-conservative of the Goldwater strain, I soon found out this was all wrong. But another paleo voice who even shortly before he died announced he'd found anarchy was one Joseph Sobrane who also spoke out against voting and the waste of time that it is.Voting can also be seen as a market action, the candidate as the market product or service and the vote itself as the medium of exchange.If someone walks into a store and doesn't find a product worthy of their money being spent, would you condemn their action as wrong on some level and belittle them with the excuse, "well you should have bought the lesser evil product anyway?" Really? You would actually say that? If no, then why say it to people who withhold the currency of the elective process, the vote, as they hope by doing so would force a market action in which a better product comes into the market place? Maybe the reason we have such poor choices is because voters refuse to be smart consumers.

I don't pretend for this to be a complete answer, it's just the tip of the iceberg and a very large one at that. Solutions for free peoples to self organize can be as numerous as the number of people themselves and seeing free society as a free market and not as a restricted market, such answers in numbers should be welcomed and in many cases the best working solution may indeed be a little bit of this and a little bit of that but unlike a monopolized market, a free market allows modifications, adjustments and a cafeteria style approach to societal organization. But then elites and ruling hierarchies who control such things in the first place for their own self interests don't want you to have these kinds of choices to begin with. Hope this answers some of the question you posed.




 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
I believe in the system that the Founding Fathers set up. There is plenty of room to amend the constitution if it is warranted and the majority of Americans agree. I may be wrong and you can correct me but you are inferring that the only other way to change it is through anarchy and I do not believe that is necessary.
No, I'm not saying that. It's not my business to make choices for others and in this current system, that is exactly what happens. Also 12 of your 55 founding fathers were professional slave owners, and they were treasonous revolutionaries and traitors to their native state. How is that still applicable today?
 
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moreluck

golden ticket member
Now Gloria Allred is hitting the scene............wonder how many homeless women she had to bribe to have someone else come forward??? She represents the slime side of lawyers!!
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
To all these women crawling out of the woodwork................what is your name? What did Herman do to you? Details? When did this happen ? If no one tells details, it's because they have none. I don't get the big secrecy! If I was sexually harrassed, I would probably be counter-sued for an assault on the jerk!!

If you are going to claim harrassment, at least get a real lawyer!!
 
Lifer,

I did not see your post and the question to me on Friday as about the time you posted it I had left for work. By Saturday morning when I posted a quick reply to Sleeve and my Vote for Nobody, your post was about 1 1/2 pages back, mostly a back and forth between Moreluck and Klein and to be honest I wasn't going to wade back through that. Since then I've been busy elsewhere so there you go.

On the one hand, you asserted in the original post that I would just ignore you but I guess you never gave thought that I might not see the question to begin with.

If I were President? I'd do all I could to abolish the office to begin with. For starters, I'm not a believer in the unitary executive doctrine. John Dean in his book Broken Government said this about the Unitary Executive theory,



and I believe if not before, we reached that point with Bush and even more solidified now. Even Congress who has sole constitutional authority on all matters of spending and taxation defer their duty to the President and await that office to give a national budget that sets both spending and taxation. Congress in that respect stands as a puppet IMO and the last thing it wants to do if follow the Constitution and it's Article 1 duties. Even worse are on the one hand people who say that gov't should be limited in it's size and scope and some even use free market rhetoric and yet they turn right around and scream about the sorrow job that Obama has done because, "he's not creating jobs and stimulating business activity and growth." The gov't should play no roll in the economy whatsoever, they should stay out of it and that includes all form and manner of actions of intervention. Just as gov't shouldn't be taking my money from me at the point of a gun to give to one side of the economic spectrum in the form of welfare subsidy, neither should it do the same for the otherside of the spectrum in the form of corp. welfare and subsidy and yes that includes all manner of subsidy to UPS. If UPS can't sustain itself without taking 1 penny of stolen money in the form of tax dollars from someone else, we all deserve to lose our jobs and go find something else of a more honest labor.

At the least, if I were in charge for a day, I'd abolish the Constitution to begin with and return to the Articles of Confederation.

On a broader answer, there are numerous possible solutions but here are some to consider:

Theory of Multi-Gov't or a form of Panarchy



There is also Market Anarchism that differs widely but agrees generally all that the gov't does can be addressed by market action using voluntary and self organizing action among people. And then there is Voluntaryism which could almost be infinite in how it would organize society and market actions. There is also what is called mutualism or what some called socialism absent the nationstate form which also adopts an individualist, absolute free market framework. In the 19th century, Benjamin Tucker was a leading advocate of this model and he was often described as an "unterrified Jeffersonian democrat."

When it comes to the term free market, I personally see society and market actions as one and the same but others are free to see it different and they should be. Why should an organization be granted a monopoly of force and then force others to see things this way or that? That goes straight to the heart of the concept of the "right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

As for voting, this covers several ideals also. I believe in the Non-Aggression Axiom and on some level voting violates that principle and those who win and election in elect use gov't to force those in the minority to do what they may not do if left to voluntary action. The threat of force must be used to gain acceptance and compliance. The elective process is also described by the great H.L. Mencken in more direct terms that aren't as tasteful when seen as they really are.




From election to election, from party change to party change very little really differs so IMO voting for a democrat or republican is a complete waste of time and I've not voted for one in a Presidential election since 1980' when I voted for Reagan. Thinking he was a paleo-conservative of the Goldwater strain, I soon found out this was all wrong. But another paleo voice who even shortly before he died announced he'd found anarchy was one Joseph Sobrane who also spoke out against voting and the waste of time that it is.Voting can also be seen as a market action, the candidate as the market product or service and the vote itself as the medium of exchange.If someone walks into a store and doesn't find a product worthy of their money being spent, would you condemn their action as wrong on some level and belittle them with the excuse, "well you should have bought the lesser evil product anyway?" Really? You would actually say that? If no, then why say it to people who withhold the currency of the elective process, the vote, as they hope by doing so would force a market action in which a better product comes into the market place? Maybe the reason we have such poor choices is because voters refuse to be smart consumers.

I don't pretend for this to be a complete answer, it's just the tip of the iceberg and a very large one at that. Solutions for free peoples to self organize can be as numerous as the number of people themselves and seeing free society as a free market and not as a restricted market, such answers in numbers should be welcomed and in many cases the best working solution may indeed be a little bit of this and a little bit of that but unlike a monopolized market, a free market allows modifications, adjustments and a cafeteria style approach to societal organization. But then elites and ruling hierarchies who control such things in the first place for their own self interests don't want you to have these kinds of choices to begin with. Hope this answers some of the question you posed.




I'm sure you may have already read THIS, if not give it a glance it isn't very long. I would like to know if you agree that it is an accurate description of the history and results of the Articles of Confederation.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I'm sure you may have already read THIS, if not give it a glance it isn't very long. I would like to know if you agree that it is an accurate description of the history and results of the Articles of Confederation.

I've not read that specific page but in a general sense it's accurate. Some historians might debate some small details here and there but it's a pretty good overview and I like the fact that they posted the actual articles for the viewer to read. It is true that one major weakness of the Articles was it contained no process for the central gov't to tax and it depended purely on voluntary contributions from the states to sustain itself. I find that a strength but that's me. The revolutionary war debt became an underlying factor in the economic realm that led towards what would become our current Constitution among other things. Also the "Continental" the currency of the day had collapsed as well as various state issue currencies and this too also placed more pressure leading to the abandoning of the Articles in favor of the new Constitution.

The proceedings of what became the Constitution have been a source of great debate for many years because the initial purpose of the gathering of the Congress in the first place was not to draft a new Constitution but to modify the existing Articles. Instead, the Congress in secret proceedings drafted what would be our Constitution and because of the secrecy involved, various conspiracy theories have abound. Some are historically interesting with others being on the absurd. Once the document was drafted, there was a serious opposition known typically as the anti-federalist movement and you can google that for the details. The later addition of the original 10 amendments of what we call the Bill of Rights was added in the hopes of qwelling anti-federalist objections and history shows that effort worked.

The Articles are an excellent read in that you will see much language that you will later see in the Constitution itself and IMO it offers some insight and clarity on intent of certain language used. For example, you read about the term General Welfare and how it's used in the Articles could well suggest what it's meaning and construction was about when used in the later Constitution. And No I don't believe the founders understood the term welfare in the same manner we do today in modern America. I would highly recommend everyone read the Articles of Confederation not because I believe you would somehow agree with me but because doing so and reading the language and it's construction offers a really good insight into understanding the Constitution especially where similar language is used.

And when it comes to the great struggle of Hamiltonianism verse Jeffersonianism, I'm purely in the Jeffersonian camp. I even regret that Aaron Burr's bullet didn't find it's mark about 30 years earlier so from that you should be able to deduce that I consider Hamilton no friend of liberty.
:wink2:
 

klein

Für Meno :)
images
 
I've not read that specific page but in a general sense it's accurate. Some historians might debate some small details here and there but it's a pretty good overview and I like the fact that they posted the actual articles for the viewer to read. It is true that one major weakness of the Articles was it contained no process for the central gov't to tax and it depended purely on voluntary contributions from the states to sustain itself. I find that a strength but that's me. The revolutionary war debt became an underlying factor in the economic realm that led towards what would become our current Constitution among other things. Also the "Continental" the currency of the day had collapsed as well as various state issue currencies and this too also placed more pressure leading to the abandoning of the Articles in favor of the new Constitution.

The proceedings of what became the Constitution have been a source of great debate for many years because the initial purpose of the gathering of the Congress in the first place was not to draft a new Constitution but to modify the existing Articles. Instead, the Congress in secret proceedings drafted what would be our Constitution and because of the secrecy involved, various conspiracy theories have abound. Some are historically interesting with others being on the absurd. Once the document was drafted, there was a serious opposition known typically as the anti-federalist movement and you can google that for the details. The later addition of the original 10 amendments of what we call the Bill of Rights was added in the hopes of qwelling anti-federalist objections and history shows that effort worked.

The Articles are an excellent read in that you will see much language that you will later see in the Constitution itself and IMO it offers some insight and clarity on intent of certain language used. For example, you read about the term General Welfare and how it's used in the Articles could well suggest what it's meaning and construction was about when used in the later Constitution. And No I don't believe the founders understood the term welfare in the same manner we do today in modern America. I would highly recommend everyone read the Articles of Confederation not because I believe you would somehow agree with me but because doing so and reading the language and it's construction offers a really good insight into understanding the Constitution especially where similar language is used.

And when it comes to the great struggle of Hamiltonianism verse Jeffersonianism, I'm purely in the Jeffersonian camp. I even regret that Aaron Burr's bullet didn't find it's mark about 30 years earlier so from that you should be able to deduce that I consider Hamilton no friend of liberty.
:wink2:

I plan on reading the A of the C, just haven't had time to do so yet. For a retired person I sure manage to stay fairly busy.
I agree on the difference in the word welfare from how they were using it and how we think of it today. In short, general welfare says to me pretty much the same as the well being of the population as a whole and today is smacks of taking care of deadbeats. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone on today's welfare role are deadbeats.

The problem I have when reading some of the analysis' of history is that one can never tell who is doing it straight and who has what kind of an agenda. Seems eveyone has an agenda these days.
 

ajblakejr

Age quod agis
Klein

Rape is a violent act.

In the United States, an accusation of Rape is followed by a rape kit whereas biological evidence is collected within 72 hours.

The bumper sticker you posted is beyond bad taste.
 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
Klein

Rape is a violent act.

In the United States, an accusation of Rape is followed by a rape kit whereas biological evidence is collected within 72 hours.

The bumper sticker you posted is beyond bad taste.
It may be bad taste, but those who are forking over money to that stooge have the worst taste of all.
 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
"Mr. Cain instead decided to try to provide her with his idea of a stimulus package," Allred said.

Bialek detailed Cain's sexual overture, explaining that he spent money on a palatial hotel suite for her at the time of their meeting. When they saw each other in the evening, Bialek said he his hand on her leg, "reached for [her] genitals" and pushed her head toward his crotch.

When Bialek objected, Cain asked her: "You want a job, right?"


Allred: Cain offered client 'his idea of a stimulus package' - Alexander Burns - POLITICO.com
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
"Mr. Cain instead decided to try to provide her with his idea of a stimulus package," Allred said.

Bialek detailed Cain's sexual overture, explaining that he spent money on a palatial hotel suite for her at the time of their meeting. When they saw each other in the evening, Bialek said he his hand on her leg, "reached for [her] genitals" and pushed her head toward his crotch.

When Bialek objected, Cain asked her: "You want a job, right?"


Allred: Cain offered client 'his idea of a stimulus package' - Alexander Burns - POLITICO.com
Why didn't she tell her boyfriend at the time (she mentioned she had a boyfriend).....so he could beat the :censored2: out of Cain ?......OR.....why didn't she make a police report at the time of the incident ?? At least it would be on file.

Gloria must've been up all night poking the homeless in L.A. to dig her up.

Remember the ad that ran for anyone who slept with Rick Perry? Same stuff.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
"Mr. Cain instead decided to try to provide her with his idea of a stimulus package," Allred said.

Bialek detailed Cain's sexual overture, explaining that he spent money on a palatial hotel suite for her at the time of their meeting. When they saw each other in the evening, Bialek said he his hand on her leg, "reached for [her] genitals" and pushed her head toward his crotch.

When Bialek objected, Cain asked her: "You want a job, right?"


Allred: Cain offered client 'his idea of a stimulus package' - Alexander Burns - POLITICO.com

So she decides to keep quiet on the matter for 14 years, and today tells the entire nation what supposedly occurred all that time ago. All the media is doing here is boring the public with details that honestly has no impact on whether they decide to vote for Herman or not. Where was Gloria Allred when Jennifer flowers, Kathleen Willy, Juanita Broderick, and all the other named women were coming out about Bill Clinton? Sorry, but this has become a sideshow with absolutely no merit whatsoever.
 

UnconTROLLed

perfection
Sorry, but this has become a sideshow with absolutely no merit whatsoever.
OF course, we already know that Herman Cain is a sideshow and a joke. Been saying this since what, August? He is simply a distraction created by money and mass media. You might as well vote Jerry Springer in as VP
 
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