Is Central States pension fund ready to go under?

[krash]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

Nospinzone,

Briefly, your view is the entire contract remains in effect after the NLRB decertifies the Teamsters and certifies the APWA. My understanding is the entire contract does not remain in effect.

However, the *limited* doctrine of Maintaining The Status Quo does keep mandatory subjects of bargaining in place, but not all other non-mandatory subjects. There would presumably be major debates between negotiators as to exactly what is, and is not, mandatory, and exactly how much change is allowed before the Status Quo rule is violated. Several subjects would have to change significantly since the APWA proceedures are, by definition, different from the Teamsters. Replacing one union with another is itself a huge change in the Status Quo and has consequences. Alledged violations of the limited Status Quo doctrine might be Unfair Labor Practices, but enforcing each of them would require filing formal charges with the NLRB and waiting for the board to rule on each. It could get ugly.

But, as I hear Bill O'Reilly say every weeknight: "We'll let the folks decide."

Sounds to me like we are headed for total chaos

 

[Cole]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

Sometimes you have to go through chaos to get things right. lol

 

[705red]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

Sometimes you have to go through chaos to get things right. lol

Let me know when it will happen so i can resign from ups first, i dont want to give them the satisfaction of firing me.

 

[nospinzone]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

Sounds to me like we are headed for total chaos

yes chicken little, the sky is falling.

 

[krash]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

Sometimes you have to go through chaos to get things right. lol

True brother, true. But I guess we could come out better or far far worse. Like no representation at all. The thought of working for Uncle Buster with no union gives me the willies.
But I guess what will be will be(sounds like a song). But debating it is quite fun at times, isn't it?

 

[krash]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

yes chicken little, the sky is falling.

Well now, you hurt my feelings. I'm gonna tell my big brother on you and his gonna woop you good

 

[Cole]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

True brother, true. But I guess we could come out better or far far worse. Like no representation at all. The thought of working for Uncle Buster with no union gives me the willies.
But I guess what will be will be(sounds like a song). But debating it is quite fun at times, isn't it?

It gives me the heebie jeebies too Yeah it does sound like a song! You better get onto to Nashville with that one. I'll come uo with some guitar parts. "Whatever will be will be, so UPS please stop harrassing me!! LOL Everybody now!!!Whatever will be will be ......!

Debate is sometimes fun, but imho always necessary, that way when all is said and done we can't say we didn't see all the facts etc...and view it from different angles.

Peace all!

 

[krash]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

It gives me the heebie jeebies too Yeah it does sound like a song! You better get onto to Nashville with that one. I'll come uo with some guitar parts. "Whatever will be will be, so UPS please stop harrassing me!! LOL Everybody now!!!Whatever will be will be ......!

Debate is sometimes fun, but imho always necessary, that way when all is said and done we can't say we didn't see all the facts etc...and view it from different angles.

Peace all!

I believe you missed your calling. You should have been a song writer.
Debating is fun when you can add "humor". With what APWA has "promised", you can't help but laugh(Sorry, couldn't help myself).
Go ahead sawdusty, ATTACK!!!

 

[Bill]

BINGO!!! We have a winner! BUT...Engineer79 researches all the facts and gets all the answers! I think his credibility just got shot down. Let's have just the facts maam!

Who explained anything to you? The Teamsters? You believe everything that the Teamsters tell you, and you accept it without any proof. Why don't you ask them about our pension and medical benefits being slashed, and how they are going to fix these problems? What do the Teamsters offer any longer that is of any value to us?

 

[Bill]

2 plus 2 equals 4. Havent seen a question in any of your ramblings. If you have a question please repost it or direct me to it and ill answer it the best i can, if i cant answer it i will say i cant answer it.

The question was asked in #118. For some reason, no one can answer the question of : why are you still loyal to the Teamsters. What are they offering? refer to #118 for the entire question.

 

[Bill]

Re: The Status Quo? . . . I don't know.

Nospinzone,

Please re-read my post. I clearly said that federal, state, and local laws would remain in effect during the negotiation phase. Rape and pillage, and all other criminal acts, would still be illegal. I also said the NLRB's rules that prohibit Unfair Labor Practices remain in effect. But the contract between the Teamsters and UPS ceases to apply the day the NLRB certifies the APWA and decertifies the Teamsters. It's like when a man divorces his wife: when the divorce becomes "final," the marriage contract disolves.

This is the third post that you have used the term "status quo." Before, you seemed to say the entire contract continued in force after the official change of bargaining agents, now you seem to be conceeding that the status quo applies only to mandatory subjects of bargaining. There are a limited number of such mandatory subjects, everything else is non-mandatory. And there will undoubtedly be disputes over which subjects really are mandatory. These are negotiations with UPS after all. So would you at least conceed that there is no status quo protection when it comes to all the many non-mandatory subjects? The mandatory ones would be protected under the Unfair Labor Practice rules, but of course, enforcing those rules will be a major ongoing problem, as enforcing the current contract is now.

The Teamsters contract with UPS will no longer apply. Just read the contract and notice how it makes constant references to the Teamsters (IBT), and its Local Unions. How can this language logically apply when you just decertified them? How, to take just one example, can a decertified BA represent you, or process a grievance, or sit on a grievance panel when you just fired him and stopped paying his salary?

Ideally, the APWA should post an online version of the contract and highlight each clause they claim will still apply after decertification. Then we can all see how many such clauses there are, whether their applicability makes sense, and how likely UPS is to honor them.

I'd also like to see more official quotes about this crucial concept of "status quo." I looked for it on the NLRB website when you first raised it but couldn't find anything.

Do you agree that on the day the APWA is certified, dues payments to the Teamsters stops, as does contributions to the pension and health & welfare funds?

What happens if negotiations drag out past the one year mark and the APWA looses its NLRB protected status?

It is getting quite obvious what you are trying to do. At first, you present us with a lawsuit that pertained to the New England area. Most people would not have known about this information. It appeared that you wanted the APWA people to know about this. Then you change course and question the APWA and its intentions. Then you feed us more information that was put out there by UPS and the offer they made to the Teamster. It seems to me that you are in a position in upper management in UPS, and your assignment is to feed us the information that UPS wants us to have. The ultimate goal is to get rid of any union (whether it is the Teamsters or the APWA).

 

[area43]

I like the fact the Apwa is bringing attention(to the front burner) about the pension to the Teamsters. I feel though the Apwa is like a Presidential candidate that has no chance of becoming President, but forces the incumbent or the favorite(candidate to win) to address certian issues(Pressing important issues) in a very serious and urgent manner. I ve been with UPS for 22 years and have been happy with teamster support as a Shop stewart and worker. The pension side of things are another story(tragedy). In my 22 years I have seen very few Mgt people retire, none to be exact in our center. They either got fired or were forced to quit bascially a revolving door. On the hourly union side I have seen people get fired, but always got their Job back. Teamsters though not always perfect have kept us all working. Believe me UPS would love to impose a 2 to 3 year revolving door with all us hourlies.

 

[krash]

Who explained anything to you? The Teamsters? You believe everything that the Teamsters tell you, and you accept it without any proof. Why don't you ask them about our pension and medical benefits being slashed, and how they are going to fix these problems? What do the Teamsters offer any longer that is of any value to us?

You might wanna look in the mirror there bucko. You are such a hypocrite. APWA hasn't proved anything but your preaching to us?? Man, one of your APWA pal's needs to look you up and slap the stupid out of you for making them look foolish!

 

[705red]

The question was asked in #118. For some reason, no one can answer the question of : why are you still loyal to the Teamsters. What are they offering? refer to #118 for the entire question.

I have no beef with the teamsters. The beef with cs pension is on the investment firm. I am an active member i attend every monthly meeting and outside organizing drives, i get out of it what i put in, and i cant complain about it. The teamsters give me more than i give them. Get involved and quit your crying!

 

[raceanoncr]

Who explained anything to you? The Teamsters? You believe everything that the Teamsters tell you, and you accept it without any proof. Why don't you ask them about our pension and medical benefits being slashed, and how they are going to fix these problems? What do the Teamsters offer any longer that is of any value to us?

Boy, this is funny! Again, Eng, FOCUS! YOU sure haven't explained anything to me! Please refer to earlier posts. I've asked you question after question and you just artfully direct the answer to APWA and the CS! You should be a politician.

TRY to zero in on the question at hand and stick to it. I'm not going to go over and over this time and time again (at least I said I wasn't), but you seem so Attention Deficient that I find myself trying to get you focused somehow and it just ain't working! You just won't take your meds when we're not watching you every hour!

 

[raceanoncr]

Engineer70 (losing credibility), still waiting for some answers here...

 

[tieguy]

I like the fact the Apwa is bringing attention(to the front burner) about the pension to the Teamsters. I feel though the Apwa is like a Presidential candidate that has no chance of becoming President, but forces the incumbent or the favorite(candidate to win) to address certian issues(Pressing important issues) in a very serious and urgent manner. I ve been with UPS for 22 years and have been happy with teamster support as a Shop stewart and worker. The pension side of things are another story(tragedy). In my 22 years I have seen very few Mgt people retire, none to be exact in our center. They either got fired or were forced to quit bascially a revolving door. On the hourly union side I have seen people get fired, but always got their Job back. Teamsters though not always perfect have kept us all working. Believe me UPS would love to impose a 2 to 3 year revolving door with all us hourlies.

Sounds like wonderfull rhetoric and I'm sure your BA is going to give you some brownie points for such a post. In my district I've seen about 10 management people retire in the past 5 years. I expect that pace to accelerate in the next 5 years as more managment reach retirement age that started during the expansions of the 70's and 80's.

I agree that APWA is adding something to the debate. Their biggest problem is probably that they lack credibility for such an undertaking. It would be good if they organized something on a smaller scale and were successful before attacking the teamsters position at UPS.

I love it when you hard heads try to say the company is supporting APWA. The thought of ups getting in the union business is a good laugh if nothing else.

 

[705red]

Sounds like wonderfull rhetoric and I'm sure your BA is going to give you some brownie points for such a post. In my district I've seen about 10 management people retire in the past 5 years. I expect that pace to accelerate in the next 5 years as more managment reach retirement age that started during the expansions of the 70's and 80's.

I agree that APWA is adding something to the debate. Their biggest problem is probably that they lack credibility for such an undertaking. It would be good if they organized something on a smaller scale and were successful before attacking the teamsters position at UPS.

I love it when you hard heads try to say the company is supporting APWA. The thought of ups getting in the union business is a good laugh if nothing else.

Why isnt it possible that ups could be attempting to get into the union business. In chicago alot of them pay dues and pension payments for us. Every sup that works we ask for dues and pension for that day, its in the contract.

 

[wildgoose]

Re: Status Quo doctrine is limited in scope, hard to enforce

It gives me the heebie jeebies too Yeah it does sound like a song! You better get onto to Nashville with that one. I'll come uo with some guitar parts. "Whatever will be will be, so UPS please stop harrassing me!! LOL Everybody now!!!Whatever will be will be ......!

Debate is sometimes fun, but imho always necessary, that way when all is said and done we can't say we didn't see all the facts etc...and view it from different angles.

Peace all!

This forum can open the eyes to whats going on in many ways. Entertaining too at best But i believe it has pushed the teamsters into taking action that it would normally not entertain at all. They have also exposed their underbelly and are forcing them to take some action or loose their stronghold for the future. They would have never considered letting ups pay the buyout penalty if the Central States was in such a lousy position ? Look at 97 and they cannot pull that stunt again then resend it later ! People are really seeing the true colors of this group for what its worth and arn`t afraid to say something - It shows in this forum for sure.

 

[Bill]

Why isnt it possible that ups could be attempting to get into the union business. In chicago alot of them pay dues and pension payments for us. Every sup that works we ask for dues and pension for that day, its in the contract.

Red, check this out. I have been looking at the times that you post on this forum. You are on everyday of the week, and in the morning, afternoon, and night times. If you were working for UPS as an employee, then you would not be able to write on this forum at the times that you do. I believe that you are a BA or union representative trying to keep your job and hefty pension that the Teamsters provide for you. You seem to have all hours of the day everyday of the week to write pro-Teamster propaganda.