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westsideworma
Guest
I was waiting for someone to say it, I personally wouldn't know as I've been here a little over 2 years
Is UPS really this bad to work for, or are people exaggerating??
- Thread starter johnbirshire
- Start date
I was waiting for someone to say it, I personally wouldn't know as I've been here a little over 2 years
because -----it was different, not necessarily better.Things change---services change---customers change---competition changes----this is the real challange for UPS---to change with the business climate---to try to keep the workforce happy (never ending challange!) and to keep our customers happy so they don't divert to our competitors(another never ending challange)!!
So--people don't like change......that's not the way we used to do it----I remember hearing after UPS went into the overnite air business---and than again when we entered the Int'l market----" we were successful without it-why do we need it?"
So answering the question--is UPS really a bad place to work------it is a good company, not the best----but the EMPLOYEES ARE GREAT--and that is why people stay--we depend on each other--we complain--but when push comes to shove ----none of our competitors have the quality of people that we do!!
So--people don't like change......that's not the way we used to do it----I remember hearing after UPS went into the overnite air business---and than again when we entered the Int'l market----" we were successful without it-why do we need it?"
So answering the question--is UPS really a bad place to work------it is a good company, not the best----but the EMPLOYEES ARE GREAT--and that is why people stay--we depend on each other--we complain--but when push comes to shove ----none of our competitors have the quality of people that we do!!
I mean it used to be a little less regimental, although it always has been, that is why we make the billions a yr in profit that we do. As upsdawg stated, it is because of the people. Ive worked many places, but not big corps, but there are very few people in 23 yrs that I dont like who I have worked with. It just seems now that we are pressed to do the impossible and I know 95% of us do the best we can do to service the customers, very few just want to hang out for hours and make OT. But since the #s are the only thing at times we hear about, it ruins the morale. But most of us just work to get home at night and do it another day. And most of us work thogether to help each others day, switch an air, switch a Pu, help another if they are under the weather. I dont know many places where people come to work, when they should be in bed, we are a loyal group.
As for change, a big one was DIaD, the old timers were crying their eyes out. But I told them not to be intimidated as I had been on a computer before it was popular, I tried to tell them once they got used to it, it would be a gift, and it was. No more wet delivery records, papers blowing on the clipboard when people were trying to sign, no more frozen pens, etc., within weeks the most senior guys were elated. But change is always scary, human nature. It was "funner" back then coz we used to have cook outs, ball games, rodeos, family days, amusement park days, a time to focus on why we do what we do. And we knew everyones family, and got to spend those times together outside of work. But most of thats gone, thats why it was better then to me.
SteveOUPS
Me and my helper.
I'm 40 and have done it for 20 years. PAS has made it impossible for me to even conceive doing this job much longer. I'm thinking of feeders.......
canon
Well-Known Member
I've been trying to get my current mgmt team to fix the PAS problems for the last year. It's costing me easily 40 minutes a day to travel to another area already being covered by another driver for 1-3 stops. That driver gets 3-4 stops in an area being covered by me. This isn't restricted to just my loop, it's center wide.
When they re-looped everything, essentially what they did was toss out decades of IE department data, onroad supervisor adjustments, and driver input in favor of someone sitting behind a desk looking at a map. They promised the inital re-loop was going to be followed up by "fine tuning" which would include driver input. Hasn't happened. I even told them I could easily take an additional 10-15 stops with the adjustments that they also agree are necessary. The fix would require them to actually work tho, (they would have to reloop it) so nothing has been done for just under a year. Why? Because the driver sups look good on paper when their drivers dispatch because of the higher miles. It's about the numbers. That's fine... I don't own stock so I don't mind their dividends ending up in my fuel tank or as overtime on my paycheck.
So, for the majority of my center, everyone is over lapping each other unnecessarily and has been since PAS went live (think of this in terms of additional miles, hours, vehicle maintenance, drivers etc) with the additional insults of being told we're doing a lousy job and need to work faster despite the known deficiencies in load quality and PAS labeling mistakes. And what is the latest concern from our mgmt team? They recently announced the 10 minute paid break is to be used to cover our bathroom visits.
One day someone with a brain at ups will stumble on the notion that maybe the fastest way to reduce the union presence is to eliminate the perception that a strong union is still currently a necessity. Wow, what a concept.
My favorite tho was when I was parttime and the driver sup who ran the Saturday Air sort told me I wouldn't be able to continue working on saturdays because my National Guard drills were disruptive to UPS business. LOL... I didn't argue... just went straight to my JAG office. Apparently, the threat of UPS being sued by the US Govt was the more disruptive of the two choices. I'll bet he was only thinking of his career tho.
Yeah, UPS is a great place to work. You just have to develop a good sense of humor concerning the constant threat of discipline for factors beyond your control, and be indifferent to constantly being told you're not doing a good enough job by people who will most likely be the next to be fired themselves. Nobody is safe from the idiots on the next rung up.
Having said that... thank you Dave Ramsey... i'm only a few months away from no longer being in a position of needing UPS.
When they re-looped everything, essentially what they did was toss out decades of IE department data, onroad supervisor adjustments, and driver input in favor of someone sitting behind a desk looking at a map. They promised the inital re-loop was going to be followed up by "fine tuning" which would include driver input. Hasn't happened. I even told them I could easily take an additional 10-15 stops with the adjustments that they also agree are necessary. The fix would require them to actually work tho, (they would have to reloop it) so nothing has been done for just under a year. Why? Because the driver sups look good on paper when their drivers dispatch because of the higher miles. It's about the numbers. That's fine... I don't own stock so I don't mind their dividends ending up in my fuel tank or as overtime on my paycheck.
So, for the majority of my center, everyone is over lapping each other unnecessarily and has been since PAS went live (think of this in terms of additional miles, hours, vehicle maintenance, drivers etc) with the additional insults of being told we're doing a lousy job and need to work faster despite the known deficiencies in load quality and PAS labeling mistakes. And what is the latest concern from our mgmt team? They recently announced the 10 minute paid break is to be used to cover our bathroom visits.
One day someone with a brain at ups will stumble on the notion that maybe the fastest way to reduce the union presence is to eliminate the perception that a strong union is still currently a necessity. Wow, what a concept.
My favorite tho was when I was parttime and the driver sup who ran the Saturday Air sort told me I wouldn't be able to continue working on saturdays because my National Guard drills were disruptive to UPS business. LOL... I didn't argue... just went straight to my JAG office. Apparently, the threat of UPS being sued by the US Govt was the more disruptive of the two choices. I'll bet he was only thinking of his career tho.
Yeah, UPS is a great place to work. You just have to develop a good sense of humor concerning the constant threat of discipline for factors beyond your control, and be indifferent to constantly being told you're not doing a good enough job by people who will most likely be the next to be fired themselves. Nobody is safe from the idiots on the next rung up.
Having said that... thank you Dave Ramsey... i'm only a few months away from no longer being in a position of needing UPS.
W
westsideworma
Guest
It sounds like the company was more personal back then. I know you drivers help each other out when you can. We try to do that on the preload with each other as well. Coaching the new hires when management comes down on them and such (no wonder we can't keep anyone). The biggest reason we have trouble wrapping on our line is 60% or more of our work comes in the last hour and they put twice as many people up on the slide to sort it to the boxline....only problem is theres the same amount of preloaders pulling the cages. Its just gets frustrating. We do respect you and respect what you have to deal with and hope you guys know we really don't try to screw up your day. Well most of us. Its just that we hope you know that we are asked to do next to the impossible as well. Most of you realize this because you did it before. In fact you can tell which drivers were on the preload and moved up vs those who were hired off the street (least in our hub, not trying to upset any off street hires here). The ones off the street whine and moan and complain like nothing else. All of my drivers worked the preload so they know how bad it can get. When the supes order us to throw it in the truck it makes me embarrassed to say I loaded that thing. I knew the drivers I had (time before PAS started) very well. They KNOW when their truck looks like a bomb hit it that it was because I was "working as directed." I still felt disgusted though. I used to start @ 3:45 and they wanted me done at 8:45 which was always attainable with a 3 car pull that does about 900-1000 pieces. The load would look neat and was packed tight (this was with the load charts, not PAS).
Now that start us at 4 and want it done at 8 with the same or in many cases more volume. Yet they can't understand why the loads look like garbage and we're having misloads. After a while, when you're really moving and getting slammed, routes 67F and 67E start to look similar. Their latest kick as I mentioned in another thread is that the load needs to be stop for stop in that amount of time with the PALs peeled off and facing the driver....right. They want all that done fine I'd be glad to help out and do it, but give us the time to do it, its cheaper for them to have has start a little earlier and get it done right (and this isn't a knock to how much you guys make) than having the driver look through the load and resort the sections while on the road because they're rushing us out the door. Plus it allows your day to go smoother (theoretically) and for you to get home quicker to your families or whatever it is you like to do in your free time.
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You make some very good points and it sounds like you truly care about doing your job, which is becoming rare. Its so hard to find people who actually want to work, and the fact that the wage is the same to start as it was 20 yrs ago, isnt very enticing. Then 8 bucks an hour I doubled my minimum wage job, in half the hours, and had benefits. Now its going to be just above the new minimum wage. Although the benefits count for a lot if you need them, and I think they have tuition reimbursement also. The off the street hires are a little slow to learn, that every job at UPS is measured, and disected to run efficient, hence the constant push, push, to do more in less time. But I think it will soon get to the point of diminished return, because I think everyone is about at the level of going as fast, as they safely can. I can speak for most of the drivers, we know our loaders are pushed to the hilt, and we do appreciate them, because as you stated, many of them have been there before. The loaders who I have seen have a real hard time, are the ones who barely had any training, and the other loaders trying to help him learn, but most are so swamped they dont have time to help. And I think you actually learn more from each other anyway. Have a great weekend.
pork chop
New Member
At UPS you know each day you have a job , no worries for layoffs or your job has been eliminated on the hourly level. Yeah your gonna work your but off and gonna get it chewed depending on how much your sup. got his chewed by his boss on so on. But most everyone you work with day to day are great.Help each other out and give it your 100% and go home knowing you did, and it isn't that bad after all.
ncrtscisme
Well-Known Member
UMMMM...you might want to take back that sentence, pork chop. I was under that same assumption for over 6 years, until UPS decided to downsize the IT department and MANY techs were laid off. Yes, some chose to leave and take a severance pay, but many people who wanted to stay could not and were forced to leave. We were not even given the option to move to open jobs in other departments. So, until last year your statement may have been true...but all that has changed.
The once-respectable morals of this company have been reduced to a "steaming pile of ****"
DS
Fenderbender
This may be the most realistic thread I`ve ever posted on here in the brown cafe`.Obviously theres a few issues
involving bad management that stands in my opinion to
be the biggest problem.UPS is such a big company that oftimes the decisions made from the big brown tower ,are made by people that really only care about making money.
I bet PAS was a good sell in the boardroom and the subsequent promotions and pats on the back were no doubt
rewarded.I think IMHO that most drivers (the backbone of ups)know exactly how much they can do it 9.5 hours.(12?)
Start the drivers a half hour early to fix the problems associated with PAS until the time when the problems can be fixed.
We arent on it yet here thank God
involving bad management that stands in my opinion to
be the biggest problem.UPS is such a big company that oftimes the decisions made from the big brown tower ,are made by people that really only care about making money.
I bet PAS was a good sell in the boardroom and the subsequent promotions and pats on the back were no doubt
rewarded.I think IMHO that most drivers (the backbone of ups)know exactly how much they can do it 9.5 hours.(12?)
Start the drivers a half hour early to fix the problems associated with PAS until the time when the problems can be fixed.
We arent on it yet here thank God
canon
Well-Known Member
I had no complaints when PAS was first introduced, prior to the routes being re-looped. This was a "getting familiar" time with the new system, but essentially nothing had changed on the shelves. Then we went live and someone who had never even been on a package car was given the task of relooping our whole center. (I take that back, she said she had been a driver helper during one peak season. My bad.)
I had a different route at that time... 50/50 split of heavy industrial park volume and residential with 35 pickups. My residential came from a HUGE subdivision directly across the street from the industrial area. I was able to dispatch everyday within a 1 mile radius of the center of my business stops. When she relooped my area, my residential was spread out over four different zip codes. A handful of stops here, some over there, a few more elsewhere... and the same for the other drivers having to come to (and thru) my area to deliver their "new more efficient routes".
When she agreed to see me about fixing it, I received a huge explanation about how "this is the baseline, and these are another driver's am stops, these are someone else's pm stops (etc)", and finally told me there's nothing wrong with it. What the heck happened to trying to maintain stop density? Why is it cost effective to have 3 drivers servicing the same subdivision? Every time a driver has to leave a subdivision and get back into traffic it costs time.
On that route, I handled 400-500+ packages a day between delivery and pickups. Not once in the 5 years I was on that route did management ever have to talk to me about my job performance. Literally overnight, I went from someone who had the respect of my management team to someone who needed to be rode with to find out why I was so far overallowed. The kicker is that they pretended not to understand the cause for it. Gee, how dumb does that make them look?
The day after my ride-along, I asked what my numbers were. He said I was an hour and twenty minutes over-allowed. I asked, "You rode with me, what was I doing wrong or what can I do differently to get that number down?" His response was one of the more believable I've heard from management: "You didn't do anything wrong, it's just the way the time allowances are set up. We're more concerned with keeping drivers under 9.5 and not so worried about a little over allow." I went on to ask if it's even possible to run scratch... he said no.
What the heck UPS? If I took a class in college where a test was based on 100 points, but the teacher said it was only possible to make a 50% on it... why would the teacher even expect me to try? The numbers are so unrealistic it creates a "screw it, there's no way to win" attitude. The house is playing with a marked deck and the players know it... the frustrating part is the arrogance surrounding upper management's belief that we're not smart enough to figure it out (or the indifference of how it impacts us). PAS eliminated a lot of the old time allowances because it was supposed to eliminate misloads, or having to "fix" the load on area, and looking for stops etc. PAS was supposed to put all our stops in order, stop for stop, in the most efficient way possible. It did none of this (for any driver I know of in my center), but we lost the time allowances anyway and gained the additional work which was supposed to accompany the new time saving benefits under the PAS system. We are set up for failure, then criticized for not succeeding.
Believe me, I didn't start out this bitter. In 14 years I've only filed one greviance. I'm not a runner, but for some reason earning mgmt's respect has always been of importance to me (maybe it the military influence... huah lol) so I do what is expected and have always tried to be on the courteous/helpful side of requests from management. I've never even put in for an 8hour because I know it's a pain to cover pickups etc, yet the sups do their best to make me feel like crap for not coming in when I'm sick. I'm not anti-company nor pro-union... I know where my paycheck comes from so I've always seen both sides as being on the same team with the same ultimate goals in mind. I don't feel that way anymore.
As theraputic as it is to vent like this, I may as well be talking to my dog. On the bright side church was good tonight, we're supposed to get snow, and my wife just got me some focus mitts for mma training. Life is good.
CANON we saw the samething when we went live on pas 2 1/2 years ago. We went 3 months or so without any changes then an ie guy who was on his last leg took the dispatch job and killed our routes. We run 55 cars a day and we had 25 drivers eligible to bump off their routes because of the changes. Oh and we have 10 cover drivers. so 2/3 of our routes changed by over 50%. Some routes were eliminated but others had to be created and they are base routes, spread over everywhere possible to reach in a days drive. MOst of our guys DO actually like the job they do, I love my job I just drive to keep my temper and mouth shut till out of the building, I know what my expectations are from the company and I know my limitations what I am capable of doing and that's what I do. If it meets their #'s fine if not I know I met mine!!!!!!!! And that's all I can do. I don't slouch I do a good days work but I don't care about the FICTITIOUS #'S UPS has and if Mr. Eskew and your cronies read these posts you can stick you r #'s up your @$^&*^$
canon
Well-Known Member
LOL, that's how I was able to leave my old route. The route I bumped to is rural, so the errors in the PAS are translated to massively unnecessarily miles: 216 total this past friday when I had a supervisor with me for the fist part of the day for my annual safety ride. (Mileage would easily drop to 150-175 if they fixed PAS.)
He's a new on-road supervisor and said "I'll stay out as long as I need to" when he first showed up at my truck (satellite route). Cool, maybe he'll be interested in seeing just how far these mistakes take me and decide on his own to fix things. I finished my airs and offered him the opportunity to see the rest of my route (super nice guy, i was glad to have the company) or return to his car while we were still relatively close to it. He bailed saying he didn't want to be out that late after I told him it was going to be another long day due to the mileage. As it turns out, he and his wife had just adopted a girl and wanted to get home to his family. Go figure. I congratulated him on their decision to adopt, shook his hand and said "welcome to the center" with the same smile on my face I use for angry/difficult customers.
Business as usual.
there are a lot of people that had easy jobs that wish they had been harder (former Enron, Worldcom, etc...employees) yes UPS is a hard place to work, but if it was easy there would be no way UPS could pay the hourly rate and benifts package to the drivers. I wish did something else for a living, but there are hudreds of doors out of most UPS buildings, no one makes us walk in them. I suggest anyone that unhappy do as I have done and look for another job, I do not enjoy working at UPS at all but until I find a better job I will spend more time getting my job done than I do complaining.
canon
Well-Known Member
So love it or leave it eh? I particularly like the last sentence... that if someone is unhappy it also means they aren't getting their job done. I've done nothing but fight with my sups to fix the PAS system so I stop wasting miles, get more stops, and decrease my hours on road. I only know how to say it in English... but you demonstrate the EXACT problem I have with my immediate supervisors: Anything other than praise is dismissed as complaint. Whatever, I'm trying to help. Like I said, I don't own stock.
If you're looking outside of UPS for employment I think you're missing your mark. You'd be a carbon copy of every supervisor I currently have. I think our biggest problem might be too much promoting from within... especially since there's such a weak filter to get into this place.
Reasons I've seen mgmt fired/demoted at my building over the years:
*Drunk at work. Actually still drunk from the night before, but blew over the legal limit at noon. On-road supervisor. He wasn't going out on car that day, but the smell of alcohol was enough for a UPS sales rep to report him after she stopped by his office. (fired)
*Falsifying records. Manager changing the punch out times for the new hires (unloaders) to keep his numbers looking good. Someone thought it was strange the whole unload was punching out at EXACTLY 4 hours. Brilliant. (fired)
*Falsifying records. Manager caught shifting over 70 allowances from one driver to another so they all dispatch. (demoted)
*Falsifying records. Manager running the preload didn't want to allow hazmat responder the time during the sort to do routine inspections of equipment, nor allow her time after the sort because it would be overtime. An audit which included the woman revealed he had been signing her initials the whole time as tho she was doing the inspections. (fired)
*Sexual harrassment. The company keeps a polaroid in the office to record damages, bad loads etc. A part time supervisor used that camera to "document improper bending/lifting techniques" by a female preloader. The pic was taken at waist level from behind her while she was bent over. You couldn't tell there was improper anything, other than a closeup of her butt and including a shot straight up her shirt. (Moved to another belt, ended up taking a union job at Ford.) On a side note, this guy issued me the only warning letter I've ever received in 14 years. When I was part-time, he pulled me off the belt to review my previous days performance. I worked at the head of the belt, splitting it and loading 3 cars. He had me off the belt for about a minute and a half while the sort continued running. When we finished, he walked right past my area and sheeted up the packages I had "missed" while we were talking. I won the greviance for me and 4 other people who were there for "missing" packages as they came down the belt.
*Falsifying records. Manager using a diad to record airs left in building as delivered so he didn't have to put more air drivers on the road. (fired)
*Dishonesty. Involved with manager directly above. UPS claimed he knew about the airs being sheeted as delivered and did nothing about it. To show how much respect he had with the employees, they actually took up a petition to ask UPS to reconsider. UPS didn't... well not until he won a wrongful termination lawsuit. They offered him his position back, but he declined claiming he would be blacklisted and be forever passed up for promotion. Settled for cash, don't know how much. (fired, declined reinstatement)
*Dishonesty. Claimed to be a long time sufferer of back problems. So bad he couldn't ride on a package car (he was an on-road supervisor). Loss prevention caught him somehow. Don't know details. (fired)
*Dishonesty. Same ailments as manager above, only this guy claimed it was so bad he could no longer even come to work. LP photographed him waxing his boat. (fired)
I'm not saying there aren't drivers equally guilty of the exact same things above, but each one of those people were in charge of me at one point or another. I've had a few managers confide in me (I really do try to earn their respect) and tell me they know the numbers are wrong, but there's nothing they can do except what corporate tells them. And as much pressure as there is on us to work faster, the threat of not being promoted or even being terminated is strong enough for some mgmt to risk falsifying records. Either face discipline for not meeting the impossible numbers, or face discipline for trying to fake the impossible numbers. Which one would get you?
So the drivers are upset about EDD being wrong, PAS making things impossible to meet expectations, stop counts being as high or higher than peak season when UPS used to acknowledge the need for a helper, and mgmt being told to squeeze more out.
Love it or leave it? What's wrong with just fixing it? Run if you want, you'll be rewarded with more stops and still be told you're not pulling your weight. The slackers get days off when they want and shuttle packages out to drivers instead of being entrusted with the potential of screwing up the numbers by taking a full route. That's just the way it is.
But I do like my job, that's why I want it fixed. It's not the hard work people are complaining about, it is doing the hard work and being told we're not doing enough. My request to management was, and still is: show me how and I'll be more than happy to do it. I'm still waiting.
DS
Fenderbender
(mini quote)
canon, you articulate the drama of ups perfectly.
I`ve seen lots of drivers fired for sillier things.
I bet Mike Eskew reads the boards here
Hi Mike
bingo. things change. but is it worse? people don't like change.
i'd say fedex has way better quality people. our drivers are more skilled at their jobs by far, but the corporate culture at fx is way better, because the people that have the 'it was so much better back then, i hate my job but not the direct deposit' mentality are a minority
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