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FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
@FromOffTheStreets

You up for a written debate/discussion on what the Bible says about baptism? I think it would be good and profitable for each of us as well as others to reveal /defend what we believe and why according to the scriptures. I think it could be done on this thread/ format.
We can work out the details. Length and number of responses, who is first affirmative, etc.

These propositions sound ok with you?

"The Scriptures teach that water baptism is for (in order to obtain) the remission of sins."
I affirm.
You deny.

"The Scriptures teach that salvation comes at the point of faith, before and without water baptism."
You affirm.
I deny.
If I was setting around the house enjoying retirement like you then I would gladly hop in, but unfortunately I'm still moving pkgs all day.

At my church, it's confession of faith immediately followed by baptism & other "works of obedience" so I have no problem with baptism. I would highly encourage it.

So far This is what I've gathered from the disagreement.

Most churches;
Salvation = belief in the birth death & resurrection of Jesus
Obedience = baptism, communion, scripture etc.

Brownflush;
Salvation = belief in the birth death & resurrection of Jesus + baptism
Obedience = communion, scripture etc.

To move farther
Catholics;
Salvation = belief, baptism, sacraments, hail Mary's, confession
Obedience = go to church, pay $

Every other religion;
Salvation = work to attain, work to attain, work to attain
Obedience = work to attain
 

FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
@FromOffTheStreets

You up for a written debate/discussion on what the Bible says about baptism? I think it would be good and profitable for each of us as well as others to reveal /defend what we believe and why according to the scriptures. I think it could be done on this thread/ format.
We can work out the details. Length and number of responses, who is first affirmative, etc.

These propositions sound ok with you?

"The Scriptures teach that water baptism is for (in order to obtain) the remission of sins."
I affirm.
You deny.

"The Scriptures teach that salvation comes at the point of faith, before and without water baptism."
You affirm.
I deny.
That "dum preloader" put up some good posts regarding the baptismal regeneration & I don't have anything else to add.
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
If I was setting around the house enjoying retirement like you then I would gladly hop in, but unfortunately I'm still moving pkgs all day.

At my church, it's confession of faith immediately followed by baptism & other "works of obedience" so I have no problem with baptism. I would highly encourage it.

So far This is what I've gathered from the disagreement.

Most churches;
Salvation = belief in the birth death & resurrection of Jesus
Obedience = baptism, communion, scripture etc.

Brownflush;
Salvation = belief in the birth death & resurrection of Jesus + baptism
Obedience = communion, scripture etc.

To move farther
Catholics;
Salvation = belief, baptism, sacraments, hail Mary's, confession
Obedience = go to church, pay $

Every other religion;
Salvation = work to attain, work to attain, work to attain
Obedience = work to attain
Don't use work as an excuse not to participate in honest debate.
The advantage of written debate is time. You can write when you have it.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
@FromOffTheStreets

You up for a written debate/discussion on what the Bible says about baptism? I think it would be good and profitable for each of us as well as others to reveal /defend what we believe and why according to the scriptures. I think it could be done on this thread/ format.
We can work out the details. Length and number of responses, who is first affirmative, etc.

These propositions sound ok with you?

"The Scriptures teach that water baptism is for (in order to obtain) the remission of sins."
I affirm.
You deny.

"The Scriptures teach that salvation comes at the point of faith, before and without water baptism."
You affirm.
I deny.
Do you affirm this is scripture?

Ephesians 4: 4-5​

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
That "dum preloader" put up some good posts regarding the baptismal regeneration & I don't have anything else to add.
Sorry to hear it.
The challenge to actually look at a passage and have an honest exchange about what you believe it means and why in debate demands someone with enough conviction and honor to do it. Not saying that's you, but "I have to work" sounds like an excuse to me.The endless agree/disagree comments with no focus gets no one no where.
Take care, man.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
You were raised Christian in a mostly Christian society, yeah sure if you’re some weirdo you can go learn about Islam but for the vast vast majority of people they never will, they will accept what society and culture passes down to them especially if they are poor and stupid.
Christianity permeates all strata of society in the U.S. and elsewhere. You don't have to be poor and stupid to believe. But much of the population these days doesn't believe and no one is forcing them to. Islam has grown a lot not only in the U.S. but all through the Americas. The thing you don't get is you can rip Christianity and Christians all day in the U.S. You just can't do that towards Islam in Muslim majority countries or even in many Western countries. As much as you hate Christianity the idea of the enemy of my enemy is my friend just doesn't apply to Muslims which many liberals who hate Christianity naively believe.
 

floridays

Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear it.
The challenge to actually look at a passage and have an honest exchange about what you believe it means and why in debate demands someone with enough conviction and honor to do it. Not saying that's you, but "I have to work" sounds like an excuse to me. imo. The endless agree/disagree comments with no focus gets no one no where.
Take care, man.
Do you affirm that this is scripture?

1 Corinthians 10:1–3
King James Version

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
 

FromOffTheStreets

Well-Known Member
Don't use work as an excuse not to participate in honest debate.
The advantage of written debate is time. You can write when you have it.
When you stand before the throne and are found guilty (as every human will be) what will be your appeal?

Jesus Christ paid my debt will be your answer, it's the only answer.

You will not say Jesus Christ & I got baptized. If you place yourself anywhere near your appeal it will be cast off.

Your works will be judged outside of your salvation verdict & you will receive reward based off of your works.
 
Screenshot_20220823-214238~2.png
 
1. There are people in the Bible who are saved and have the Spirit who have not been baptized (see especially Acts 10:44-48).

2. There are people who get baptized and aren’t saved. Not only do we see this all the time in our day-to-day lives (we all know people who were baptized but now live like the devil), but we may even see this with the case of Simon the Magician in the book of Acts. What do you do when someone has been baptized but still seems unchanged? Do you just keep dunking them, hoping that one will take? No. What they need is true saving faith.

3. The criminal on the cross was saved though he wasn’t baptized. Now, some will point out that he’s under the Old Covenant and therefore doesn’t need baptism, but that misses the point because (1) the whole point is that he is receiving unmerited grace that requires no action on his part. (2) If he is under the Old Covenant then he has to offer animal sacrifices, clean himself at the temple, obey the Mosaic Law, etc. – all things he obviously isn’t doing. (3) And Jesus’ statement about how you must be “born of water” is said beforethe criminal dies on the cross. Whether he is in the Old or New Covenant, he still gets saved by grace. That’s the whole point of that text.

4. Baptism is something you do and therefore, whether you like the phrase or not, it is a “work,” and the Bible clearly demonstrates that we are not saved by anything we perform (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are not saved by any action or ritual that we can do.

5. This would mean that babies who die in infancy go to hell. Follow the logic here: if baptism is necessary for salvation and children are born sinful (Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:9-20; Ephesians 2:1-3) then you have to hold that they are lost. If you believe that God can save them by grace, then you don’t have to hold this view. There is no “age of accountability” other than the age they are at conception. (For more on this topic, read our blog “What Happens To Infants When They Die?”)

6. If baptism is necessary, then it’s necessary every time. You cannot say that God can still save a child or save someone who hasn’t been baptized “if he wants,” and also say baptism is “necessary.” They are mutually exclusive. You can’t say baptism is necessary, but then say that God can still save someone without it. If he can, then it’s not necessary.

7. What if someone didn’t get all the way under the water? What if the minister who baptized them later becomes apostate? If baptism is necessary for salvation and you don’t do it right, you might go to hell for not practicing the ordinance perfectly. That seems to assume that man was made for baptism and not baptism for man.

Conclusion
Now, don’t get me wrong. Baptism is super important. It is commanded of every Christian. If you have not been biblically baptized, you are walking in sin. Baptism is not optional. If someone just refused to be baptized, I would call their salvation into question; not because baptism saves you, but rather they are claiming that they love Christ while refusing to obey him.
 

BrownFlush

Woke Racist Reigning Ban King
When you stand before the throne and are found guilty (as every human will be) what will be your appeal?

Jesus Christ paid my debt will be your answer, it's the only answer.

You will not say Jesus Christ & I got baptized. If you place yourself anywhere near your appeal it will be cast off.

Your works will be judged outside of your salvation verdict & you will receive reward based off of your works.
Not one scripture with anything in your comment.

Who has another opinion? It's fun. I wonder why God gave us the Bible sometimes. It doesn't matter because somewhere in there it's gotta say whatever you believe will be just fine. Just really believe it.
Make up stuff , say it, and it will be so. Wherever and whoever said it. You heard it somewhere.
All your dreams will come true. All ya gotta do is believe!

Take care, man.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
1. There are people in the Bible who are saved and have the Spirit who have not been baptized (see especially Acts 10:44-48).

2. There are people who get baptized and aren’t saved. Not only do we see this all the time in our day-to-day lives (we all know people who were baptized but now live like the devil), but we may even see this with the case of Simon the Magician in the book of Acts. What do you do when someone has been baptized but still seems unchanged? Do you just keep dunking them, hoping that one will take? No. What they need is true saving faith.

3. The criminal on the cross was saved though he wasn’t baptized. Now, some will point out that he’s under the Old Covenant and therefore doesn’t need baptism, but that misses the point because (1) the whole point is that he is receiving unmerited grace that requires no action on his part. (2) If he is under the Old Covenant then he has to offer animal sacrifices, clean himself at the temple, obey the Mosaic Law, etc. – all things he obviously isn’t doing. (3) And Jesus’ statement about how you must be “born of water” is said beforethe criminal dies on the cross. Whether he is in the Old or New Covenant, he still gets saved by grace. That’s the whole point of that text.

4. Baptism is something you do and therefore, whether you like the phrase or not, it is a “work,” and the Bible clearly demonstrates that we are not saved by anything we perform (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are not saved by any action or ritual that we can do.

5. This would mean that babies who die in infancy go to hell. Follow the logic here: if baptism is necessary for salvation and children are born sinful (Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:9-20; Ephesians 2:1-3) then you have to hold that they are lost. If you believe that God can save them by grace, then you don’t have to hold this view. There is no “age of accountability” other than the age they are at conception. (For more on this topic, read our blog “What Happens To Infants When They Die?”)

6. If baptism is necessary, then it’s necessary every time. You cannot say that God can still save a child or save someone who hasn’t been baptized “if he wants,” and also say baptism is “necessary.” They are mutually exclusive. You can’t say baptism is necessary, but then say that God can still save someone without it. If he can, then it’s not necessary.

7. What if someone didn’t get all the way under the water? What if the minister who baptized them later becomes apostate? If baptism is necessary for salvation and you don’t do it right, you might go to hell for not practicing the ordinance perfectly. That seems to assume that man was made for baptism and not baptism for man.

Conclusion
Now, don’t get me wrong. Baptism is super important. It is commanded of every Christian. If you have not been biblically baptized, you are walking in sin. Baptism is not optional. If someone just refused to be baptized, I would call their salvation into question; not because baptism saves you, but rather they are claiming that they love Christ while refusing to obey him.
Your #3 point is why it's necessary to harmonize the 4 Gospels. Only one gospel gives a detailed account of Christ's interaction with the thief on the cross. When Christ said to the thief that today you will be with me in paradise the translation of paradise is literally the ground. Christ was rebuking the thief. How do I know that? Because the other two gospels that recount that interaction say that both thieves were mocking Christ. Unfortunately many people read their English translation literally. The book of Revelations is a prime example. We must know what was said in the original language, its connotation for that time. But unfortunately many who've been taught that the thief on the cross was saved will take that belief to their graves. Just as they will explain away every act of conversion in the New Testament involved baptism but they'll say it's not necessary. Read the story of Naaman the Leper in 2 Kings 5. When he was told to wash himself 7 times in the river Jordan to cleanse himself of his leprosy it made him angry. He thought the prophet would just heal him and not require him to do something he thought was beneath him. His servants pointed out to him that if he had been told to do some great thing he would have done it. So he complied and his leprosy was cured. Too many people want to resist baptism or have altered what's necessary by pouring, sprinkling, even baptizing babies. "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9.
 
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