Religion

[vantexan]

Shouldn't you be Catholic?

The Old Testament books were written well before Jesus’ Incarnation, and all of the New Testament books were written by roughly the end of the first century A.D. But the Bible as a whole was not officially compiled until the late fourth century, illustrating that it was the Catholic Church who determined the canon—or list of books—of the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, the Bible is not a not a self-canonizing collection of books, as there is no table of contents included in any of the books.
Although the New Testament canon was not determined until the late 300s, books the Church deemed sacred were early on proclaimed at Mass, and read and preached about otherwise. Early Christian writings outnumbered the 27 books that would become the canon of the New Testament. The shepherds of the Church, by a process of spiritual discernment and investigation into the liturgical traditions of the Church spread throughout the world, had to draw clear lines of distinction between books that are truly inspired by God and originated in the apostolic period, and those which only claimed to have these qualities.
The process culminated in 382 as the Council of Rome, which was convened under the leadership of Pope Damasus, promulgated the 73-book scriptural canon. The biblical canon was reaffirmed by the regional councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), and then definitively reaffirmed by the ecumenical Council of Florence in 1442.
Finally, the ecumenical Council of Trent solemnly defined this same canon in 1546, after it came under attack by the first Protestant leaders, including Martin Luther. Who Compiled the Bible and When?

Safer to say Martin Luther wasn't a Protestant leader but rather a Catholic priest who rebelled against what was happening in the Catholic Church at the time.

 

[vantexan]

Why would you accept the compilation of Scripture by the Catholic Church, claim Sola Scriptura of that compilation, and then outright reject the authority of that church?

For one the Catholic Church kept the Bible under lock and key figuratively.

 

[bottomups]

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

(I had no idea you were a Calvinist )

Calvinism is t.u.l.i.p. which I don't promote. I'm promoting scripture that you don't support. Your explanations don't make sense & that's ok.
You haven't figured out how to make free will & sovereignty unite so you stay on your closed path. It's the same on the other side, they can't unite them so they stay on the path of determinism.
The scriptures speak of both.

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

But, he doesn't interfere with your free will from birth until death.

Paul wasn't interfered with?
Moses?
Jonah?

 

[Sportello]

Lots of people spouting off about Christianity that have shown to be anything but Christian in their posts here.

 

[Fred's Myth]

For one the Catholic Church kept the Bible under lock and key figuratively.

I wouldn't expect such an ignorant statement from you.

Prior to the Gutenberg Press, copies of the Holy Bible were manuscripts, hand-written in monasteries. They even made the paper they copied onto. Copying the text alone took an estimated 15 months. The time alone invested made each text immeasurably valuable, and so left available to the public meant it was also available to thieves. The intelligent thing to do was to keep what few copies existed, secure, and only available as a reference. The result is, the accusation that the early Church prevented the few who could even read it from doing so.

Just like you're doing.

 

[BrownFlush]

I wouldn't expect such an ignorant statement from you.

Ever wonder why they didn't want anyone to read it?

 

[FromOffTheStreets]

As for the John passages.. You're going for the impossibility of apostasy..(I had no idea you were a Calvinist ) Try this...The sheep are already saved, that's why eternal life is given them.
Sheep in scripture metaphorically are the saved . Goats are not. The passage should read like this for what you want it to say..Jesus takes goats (the unsaved) and turns them into sheep by giving them eternal life.
It's not possible to be given something you have already received. If you have eternal life the moment you have forgiveness, the process by which you receive salvation and eternal life would be the same moment. Being sheep, they are already saved and the Lord gives the saved eternal life.

This back & forth was about once saved always saved I believe. Not really sure where your trying to take it there.

His sheep believe, follow & noone can take them out of his hand. However you believe that someone can take the sheep out of his hand, correct?

 

[BrownFlush]

Why would you accept the compilation of Scripture by the Catholic Church, claim Sola Scriptura of that compilation, and then outright reject the authority of that church?

In reality, the fact is, all the Catholic Church did, just like the soldier at the cross (Matt. 27:54), was to recognize what was already established as fact concerning the manuscripts of scripture. This had already been preserved and protected by God. (2 Pet. 1:3)

Better questions would be ,why would the catholic church who compiled the manuscripts claim the church is more important than the Word of God? Why isn't the catholic church found in the New Testament? Why is the Catholic Church the very fulfillment of numerous predictions in the Scriptures concerning apostasy? Could it be because of false teaching that has been sustained through the years by Biblical ignorance. The catholic denomination has corrupted nearly every aspect of true Christianity and is definitely "of this world" (Jn. 18:36).

 

[BrownFlush]

This back & forth was about once saved always saved I believe. Not really sure where your trying to take it there.

His sheep believe, follow & noone can take them out of his hand. However you believe that someone can take the sheep out of his hand, correct?

So you're not a Calvinist , but you'll go with the P in the TULIP.
From your comments, I think you have some TULI in you also.

I believe in the preservation of the saints. I believe that God's children are kept, preserved, and finally saved, by the power of God. But the difference between me and you (who believe in the impossibility of apostasy) is the answer to this question: are God's children kept, preserved, and eventually saved, by God's power, conditionally or unconditionally?
If a faithful child cannot cease to be faithful. If it's impossible for a believer to cease to be a believer and be guilty of the sin of unbelief. Then why in the world are there so many passages that warn against it? You want to hear them?

Does Peter's scripture contradict Jesus?

 

[BrownFlush]

Paul wasn't interfered with?
Moses?
Jonah?

Mary?
He's seen the movie. He knows who's going to do what when. That is how His Will became His Will. We can read about it.

Always amazed at people who say God has a plan for me. His plan is that you submit to His will and live righteously.

 

[vantexan]

I wouldn't expect such an ignorant statement from you.

Prior to the Gutenberg Press, copies of the Holy Bible were manuscripts, hand-written in monasteries. They even made the paper they copied onto. Copying the text alone took an estimated 15 months. The time alone invested made each text immeasurably valuable, and so left available to the public meant it was also available to thieves. The intelligent thing to do was to keep what few copies existed, secure, and only available as a reference. The result is, the accusation that the early Church prevented the few who could even read it from doing so.

Just like you're doing.

Notice I said figuratively. What languages were the Scriptures written in? And what language did the Catholic Church transcribe them into? What language did they conduct services in for centuries? Why weren't they translated into the many languages that were encompassed by the lands the Catholic Church dominated? You said few could even read. That was a time of noblemen and peasants. Aristocracy. The aristocrats could read and there are quite a few ancient universities in Europe. It was about keeping and maintaining power.

 

[Fred's Myth]

In reality, the fact is, all the Catholic Church did, just like the soldier at the cross (Matt. 27:54), was to recognize what was already established as fact concerning the manuscripts of scripture. This had already been preserved and protected by God. (2 Pet. 1:3)

Better questions would be ,why would the catholic church who compiled the manuscripts claim the church is more important than the Word of God? Why isn't the catholic church found in the New Testament? Why is the Catholic Church the very fulfillment of numerous predictions in the Scriptures concerning apostasy? Could it be because of false teaching that has been sustained through the years by Biblical ignorance. The catholic denomination has corrupted nearly every aspect of true Christianity and is definitely "of this world" (Jn. 18:36).

Okay, so you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, in Jesus establishing His Church, and that the laying of hands is scriptural.

 

[Fred's Myth]

Notice I said figuratively. What languages were the Scriptures written in? And what language did the Catholic Church transcribe them into? What language did they conduct services in for centuries? Why weren't they translated into the many languages that were encompassed by the lands the Catholic Church dominated? You said few could even read. That was a time of noblemen and peasants. Aristocracy. The aristocrats could read and there are quite a few ancient universities in Europe. It was about keeping and maintaining power.

No, it was about preventing heresy.

 

[vantexan]

Knowing what the scripture teaches, I know there are things we cannot explain and may never know. But, what we cannot explain and may never know is not miraculous.
I know this. There is a natural explanation, that is what you may never know. If you did , you could explain the mysterious, unexplainable, things we may never know.
I also know this, the age and purpose of miracles ceased 2000 years ago.

I agree with you 100%. I'm just saying if I wasn't there then I don't know exactly what happened and might consider something miraculous whether it was a miracle or not. I'm not going to assume that I have the power to dismiss anything and everything just because I have never personally experienced what others have.

 

[vantexan]

No, it was about preventing heresy.

And who decides what is heresy? Martin Luther was an insider who was educated in Latin. He saw the corruption and greed of the Church and openly rebelled against it. He was called a heretic, no?

 

[vantexan]

No, it was about preventing heresy.

To expound further, the early church had the various "books" copied and passed among them in their own language. The people got to know what the Apostles and other leaders were saying. The Catholic Church took that away. You say it was to prevent heresy. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church isn't in the New Testament. There's your heresy. Cloaking it in Latin and telling the people only we can tell you what God wants kept them in power for many centuries. As in kingmaker power. As in extraordinary wealth.

 

[Integrity]

To expound further, the early church had the various "books" copied and passed among them in their own language. The people got to know what the Apostles and other leaders were saying. The Catholic Church took that away. You say it was to prevent heresy. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church isn't in the New Testament. There's your heresy. Cloaking it in Latin and telling the people only we can tell you what God wants kept them in power for many centuries. As in kingmaker power. As in extraordinary wealth.

Some very interesting posts. I have a strong affinity and affection for the Catholic Faith Traditions, among others.

God has revealed to me in my heart, my soul, and my mind that any over reliance or over dependence on religious documents classified and grouped and deemed the word of God as most established Christian religions of our day do, as did the Pharisees and similarly bent religious leaders and religions of Jesus’s day can blind one to the actual presence and person of Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

The way I see it this leads to a religion that looks more like a religion that worships a book, Biblianty, than that of a religion that worships God and exalts the person of Christ, Christianity.

Jesus the person, is perfect. He is without error. He is infallible. Only He can be because only He walked the earth as God and man. He is the Word of God, the Word made flesh.

Put your trust in Him, in Him alone, not as I or anyone else tells you but as God reveals Himself to you in your heart, your soul, and your mind. Not in a book.

If you're curious, hurting, struggling or have some need inside you that is pressing upon you, I have been there and I have found that it is the person of Jesus who is my answer.

Exalt Jesus above all, above the Bible, above all religion, above all to the heavenly realm where He is at the right hand of His, our Father God and is alive as we speak right now.

I firmly believe that if you exalt Him in this way, His Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God, the same Spirit that is in Him, the same Spirit that is in the Father, the same Spirit that permeates all of Creation, will take up residence in you to transform you the perfect life that you have been longing for, the life that can only be found in one person in all of creation.

Jesus and His Spirit inside you, the Holy Spirit will lead you, guide you, and empower you to live a life as Jesus did, and truly walk in His steps.

If you don’t believe me carry on as you have, but if you have even a mustard seed faith or curiosity, try it see what happens.

Peace be with you friends.

 

[vantexan]

Some very interesting posts. I have a strong affinity and affection for the Catholic Faith Traditions, among others.

God has revealed to me in my heart, my soul, and my mind that any over reliance or over dependence on religious documents classified and grouped and deemed the word of God as most established Christian religions of our day do, as did the Pharisees and similarly bent religious leaders and religions of Jesus’s day can blind one to the actual presence and person of Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

The way I see it this leads to a religion that looks more like a religion that worships a book, Biblianty, than that of a religion that worships God and exalts the person of Christ, Christianity.

Jesus the person, is perfect. He is without error. He is infallible. Only He can be because only He walked the earth as God and man. He is the Word of God, the Word made flesh.

Put your trust in Him, in Him alone, not as I or anyone else tells you but as God reveals Himself to you in your heart, your soul, and your mind. Not in a book.

If you're curious, hurting, struggling or have some need inside you that is pressing upon you, I have been there and I have found that it is the person of Jesus who is my answer.

Exalt Jesus above all, above the Bible, above all religion, above all to the heavenly realm where He is at the right hand of His, our Father God and is alive as we speak right now.

I firmly believe that if you exalt Him in this way, His Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God, the same Spirit that is in Him, the same Spirit that is in the Father, the same Spirit that permeates all of Creation, will take up residence in you to transform you the perfect life that you have been longing for, the life that can only be found in one person in all of creation.

Jesus and His Spirit inside you, the Holy Spirit will lead you, guide you, and empower you to live a life as Jesus did, and truly walk in His steps.

If you don’t believe me carry on as you have, but if you have even a mustard seed faith or curiosity, try it see what happens.

Peace be with you friends.

And if we can turn them away from the Bible we can bring in all kinds of things called sin in the Bible and make them ok and normal.