guns

[The Other Side]

PART 2 of SOBERS America with assault weapons.

North Hollywood Bank Robbery Shootout - PT 2 of 3 - YouTube

Peace

TOS

 

[The Other Side]

PART 3 of AMERICA WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS
North Hollywood Bank Robbery Shootout - PT 3 of 3 - YouTube

Peace

TOS

 

[The Other Side]

PART 4 of America with Assault weapons...

TAKE NOTICE OF THE DRUM MAGAZINES, ARMOR and pistols, and the police shooting everything they had at them and the bullets were just bouncing off of them.

1997 North Hollywood Shootout pt.4 - YouTube

BUT HEY, ONE GUN IN THE THEATRE WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE!

This will be the norm in this country if we continue to allow weapons like these on our streets.

Please.

TOS

 

[soberups]

To those who claim that the lunatics body armor would have prevented an armed civilian from taking him out, I offer this in rebuttal.

This picture is of a frame filled with clay, over which level IIIA body armor (the kind worn by police) has been placed in order to test the effectiveness of the armor against a typical handgun round--in this case a 9mm with a jacketed hollowpoint bullet.

You can see that the armor did indeed prevent the bullet from penetating...but look at the clay behind it. The kinetic energy of the round made a dent almost the size of a fist in the clay. If that clay was instead the torso of the lunatic...he would be down on his miserable knees puking, with broken ribs and the wind knocked out of him, instead of standing there and shooting at people. And he sure as hell wouldnt have had that stupid, smug grin on his face when they took his mugshot.

Armor or not, just one armed person in that theater with the ability to make one hit on the lunatics center of mass could have saved a lot of lives that night. Unfortunately, we will never know.

 

[bbsam]

To those who claim that the lunatics body armor would have prevented an armed civilian from taking him out, I offer this in rebuttal.

This picture is of a frame filled with clay, over which level IIIA body armor (the kind worn by police) has been placed in order to test the effectiveness of the armor against a typical handgun round--in this case a 9mm with a jacketed hollowpoint bullet.

You can see that the armor did indeed prevent the bullet from penetating...but look at the clay behind it. The kinetic energy of the round made a dent almost the size of a fist in the clay. If that clay was instead the torso of the lunatic...he would be on his knees puking, with broken ribs and the wind knocked out of him, instead of standing there and shooting at people.

Armor or not, just one armed person in that theater with the ability to make one hit on the lunatics center of mass could have saved a lot of lives that night. Unfortunately, we will never know.

With all due respect to the photos, there is video of two men (I believe in L.A.) on a rampage that lasted a long, long time because their body armor was protecting them from everything the cops fired at them.

 

[toonertoo]

So if you have a gun like he did. To the gun people. 6000 shots doesnt sound like alot in reality. If you go to a range, if you are practicing for a competition, wouldnt 6000 be a nominal number? Just asking.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I think Stallone used fewer than 6K rounds while shooting (pun intended) all of the Rambo movies.

 

[Babagounj]

 

[soberups]

To those who claim that the lunatics body armor would have prevented an armed civilian from taking him out, I offer this in rebuttal.

This picture is of a frame filled with clay, over which level IIIA body armor (the kind worn by police) has been placed in order to test the effectiveness of the armor against a typical handgun round--in this case a 9mm with a jacketed hollowpoint bullet.

You can see that the armor did indeed prevent the bullet from penetating...but look at the clay behind it. The kinetic energy of the round made a dent almost the size of a fist in the clay. If that clay was instead the torso of the lunatic...he would be on his knees puking, with broken ribs and the wind knocked out of him, instead of standing there and shooting at people.

Armor or not, just one armed person in that theater with the ability to make one hit on the lunatics center of mass could have saved a lot of lives that night. Unfortunately, we will never know.

With all due respect to the photos, there is video of two men (I believe in L.A.) on a rampage that lasted a long, long time because their body armor was protecting them from everything the cops fired at them.

The North Hollywood robbers were wearing steel and ceramic trauma plates inside of their kevlar vests that could defeat even high powered rifle rounds. The plates are heavy and bulky enough to impair the mobility of the wearer, which is why the police do not normally wear them.

 

[soberups]

Please explain to me how the presence of a teenage usher armed with a flashlight would have stopped a lunatic with an AR-15 from reentering the theater.

Please explain to me how "DETECTION" of the lunatic would have prevented him from carrying out the massacre.

By the time anyone would have "detected" him, it would have been too late. He would have simply shot whichever theater employee was unlucky enough to have "detected" him, and continued on his merry way.

This was a massacre because the lunatic had a monopoly of force. He was armed and his victims weren't.

Oh and by the way...there was a "no guns allowed" sticker on the door of the theater. Apparently, the lunatic didnt see it.

Are you this dense? And you carry a weapon? Cmon bro, think it out.

P R E V E N T I O N .... re read what I wrote, and then think it out.

Peace

TOS

I re- read what you wrote, and it is still ridiculous.

Explain it to me. How does a teenage usher with a flashlight P R E V E N T a lunatic with an AR -15 from re- entering the theater?

 

[soberups]

PART 4 of America with Assault weapons...

TAKE NOTICE OF THE DRUM MAGAZINES, ARMOR and pistols, and the police shooting everything they had at them and the bullets were just bouncing off of them.

1997 North Hollywood Shootout pt.4 - YouTube

BUT HEY, ONE GUN IN THE THEATRE WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE!

This will be the norm in this country if we continue to allow weapons like these on our streets.

Please.

TOS

The North Hollywood shootout occured in 1997, 3 years after the "Assault Weapons Ban" was signed into law.

The 90 round drum magazines they used were illegal. The rifles themselves were illegal in California. The modifications they msde to the rifles so that they could fire full- auto were illegal under Federal law.

Is it possible that 2 guys who have a premeditated and well planned intention to rob a bank at gunpoint might not be too concerned with whether or not they violated any gun laws in the process?

I

 

[tourists24]

The North Hollywood shootout occured in 1997, 3 years after the "Assault Weapons Ban" was signed into law.

The 90 round drum magazines they used were illegal. The rifles themselves were illegal in California. The modifications they msde to the rifles so that they could fire full- auto were illegal under Federal law.

Is it possible that 2 guys who have a premeditated and well planned intention to rob a bank at gunpoint might not be too concerned with whether or not they violated any gun laws in the process?

I

None of this can be possible Sober.... if they were illegal then the guys couldnt have gotten the guns right?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I re- read what you wrote, and it is still ridiculous.

Explain it to me. How does a teenage usher with a flashlight P R E V E N T a lunatic with an AR -15 from re- entering the theater?

By asking for their ticket?

 

[soberups]

I re- read what you wrote, and it is still ridiculous.

Explain it to me. How does a teenage usher with a flashlight P R E V E N T a lunatic with an AR -15 from re- entering the theater?

By asking for their ticket?

If you stop and think about it, a lunatic with a loaded AR-15 doesnt really need a ticket to reenter the theater, does he?

Your problem (and TOS's) is that you are both decent, law-abiding people who respect human life, so it is easy to overlook the fact that lunatics such as the one who shot up the theater are not bound by the same social and moral codes as you and I.

People like us follow the rules and show our ticket when asked to do so. Homicidal lunatics with AR-15's who are planning to massacre everyone in a theater, on the other hand, are probably not going to be deterred by the teenage usher who asks to see their ticket.

If you want to stop lunatics, you have to try and think like they do instead of like a normal person does.

 

[Babagounj]

President Barack Obama, speaking to the National Urban League on Wednesday evening, sounded a call for gun control--and revealed his apparent ignorance about the U.S. military in the process. Obama told the audience that "AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals." However, the U.S. military does not generally use the AK-47, a weapon originally developed in the Soviet Union that was subsequently adopted by many other communist states. The AK-47 also became the weapon of choice for guerilla armies and terrorist groups.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/07/25/Obama-Thinks-US-Soldiers-Use-AK-47s

 

[soberups]

PART 4 of America with Assault weapons...

TAKE NOTICE OF THE DRUM MAGAZINES, ARMOR and pistols, and the police shooting everything they had at them and the bullets were just bouncing off of them.

The police had for some time been requesting to be issued "patrol rifles" such as AR-15's. That request was opposed by liberal, anti-gun city councelors who felt that such "assault weapons" had "no place on our streets". As a result, the beat cops that were the first to arrive on the scene were armed only with 9mm handguns and 12 gauge shotguns.... short range weapons incapable of defeating body armor and lacking the accuracy needed for head shots. Out of desperation, the cops resorted to going to a local gun store to obtain suitable weaponry. One officer armed with a scoped AR-15 could have easily taken both robbers down with head shots from 200 yards away...but such rifles were only issued to SWAT teams that took precious minutes to finally arrive. As a result of the shootout, that ridiculous policy was changed.

 

[The Other Side]

I re- read what you wrote, and it is still ridiculous.

Explain it to me. How does a teenage usher with a flashlight P R E V E N T a lunatic with an AR -15 from re- entering the theater?

If you stop and think about it, a lunatic with a loaded AR-15 doesnt really need a ticket to reenter the theater, does he?

Your problem (and TOS's) is that you are both decent, law-abiding people who respect human life, so it is easy to overlook the fact that lunatics such as the one who shot up the theater are not bound by the same social and moral codes as you and I.

People like us follow the rules and show our ticket when asked to do so. Homicidal lunatics with AR-15's who are planning to massacre everyone in a theater, on the other hand, are probably not going to be deterred by the teenage usher who asks to see their ticket.

If you want to stop lunatics, you have to try and think like they do instead of like a normal person does.

Well, I guess I have to break it down further, since I gave you too much comprehension credit in my earlier post.

Ok, lets put in a clear perspective SOBER. The colo. shooter stood in line and bought a ticket for the movie ( that gained him access ) he walked in (like normal) went to theatre 9 and entered (without an usher asking to see his ticket or asking why he was going in early) he walks down an aisle to the bottom and to the emergency exit (without and usher seeing him or stopping him to ask what he was doing) he props open the door and goes to his car which is parked out back. (no usher does a security check to see if the emergency doors are closed and secured) the shooter has time to get dressed, collect his weapons and ammo clips, put on armor, put on a gas mask and simply went back to the door that was propped open and walked in and started shooting.

Now, it all starts with the theatres failure to secure the building. An usher checking his ticket and disallowing him to enter before everyone else, would have stopped him. An Usher, inside theatre 9 would have seen him going to the emergency exit and could have asked him what he was doing and redirected him to the front. If not, the Usher SHOULD have followed him to the exit and closed and secured the door behind him.

The shooter didnt have his weapons at that time, nor was he dressed in his armor or gas mask. BEING a coward, its highly unlikely he would have used his fists to fight the ushers.

This is basic security for the theatre and something they should do EVERYDAY. Basic security SOBER, P R E V E N T I O N.

The shooter probably knew that staffing was weak and the theatre wouldnt have anyone inside theatre 9 to safe guard emergency exits. The shooter most likely planned this out by visiting the theatre previously.

IN my town, our theatre does the same, they check NOTHING.

Simple security.

Having the approriate staffing checking tickets and securing exit doors would have prevented the shooter from entering the building from the rear. The shooter DID NOT break in, he did NOT crowbar the backdoor, he merely EXPLOITED the weakness of security of the theatre.

Pretty simple stuff Sober.

Peace

TOS

 

[soberups]

So if you have a gun like he did. To the gun people. 6000 shots doesnt sound like alot in reality. If you go to a range, if you are practicing for a competition, wouldnt 6000 be a nominal number? Just asking.

A lot of people, myself included, order ammo in bulk to save money.

.22 ammo in particular is normally sold in 500-round "bricks" that cost between $15 and $20. After the "post-Obama ammo famine of 2009"...when store shelves were barren and ammo was virtually unobtainable...many people decided to "stock up" in case of future shortages. I have 6 or 7 of them in my safe.

IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) competitors might easily burn through several hundred rounds of handgun ammo in one match. Many of these guys reload their own ammo to save money.

In any case...6000 rounds of ammo ordered online is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[moreluck]

"There’s no law on the planet that will change how a man values the life of another."

 

[The Other Side]

The police had for some time been requesting to be issued "patrol rifles" such as AR-15's. That request was opposed by liberal, anti-gun city councelors who felt that such "assault weapons" had "no place on our streets". As a result, the beat cops that were the first to arrive on the scene were armed only with 9mm handguns and 12 gauge shotguns.... short range weapons incapable of defeating body armor and lacking the accuracy needed for head shots. Out of desperation, the cops resorted to going to a local gun store to obtain suitable weaponry. One officer armed with a scoped AR-15 could have easily taken both robbers down with head shots from 200 yards away...but such rifles were only issued to SWAT teams that took precious minutes to finally arrive. As a result of the shootout, that ridiculous policy was changed.

You miss the point again SOBER.

After all that, you dont answer what I asked you. IF YOU WERE THERE WITH YOUR GUN, would YOU have made a difference??

The answer: NO.

This is the america you WANT TO LIVE IN, I DONT.

The city council is right, assault weapons dont belong in police cars for patrol. Thats not how we want to live, but its gun owners like yourself that force the police departments to arm up to bigger weapons as assault weapons are being sold by the millions in this country.

Whats next Sober? Will the police have to move up to bazookas and hand grenades as muzzle launchers enter the street crime arena? What about RPG's?

Its the kind of escalation that NORMAL PEOPLE dont want to see on our streets, and its the kind of streets mental cases want to see by supporting guns.

Eventually, assault weapons will be the norm in street crime and their will be multiple casualties because of it. I wil tell you that the founders did not foresee this kind of america by allowing guns, and the extention of an interpretation that allows guns is irresponsible.

Ill tell you what, if you agree that the founders wanted you to have weapons for self defense, and that happened when they wrote the second amendment, then I will agree to allow you to have what the founders wanted you to have in the first place.

FOUNDERS: 1792 second congress

That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.


YOU CAN HAVE ALL THIS and I wouldnt have a problem.

Peace

TOS