guns

[Rainman]

Again, this is the problem with gun owners, they fear the government.

Why are there no mass shootings in israel? Why are there no assault rifles in the homes of Israeli citizens? Why dont they have a rash of gun owners shooting wives, children , neighbors and co workers?

Ill tell you why.

They screen everyone who wants a gun. They hold them accountable for every gun they buy. They limit the gun owner to 50 rounds a year and the owner has to account for every empty shell casing in order to get more ammo.

Nobody on prescription drugs for a mental issue is allowed to have a gun, that would take guns out of the hands of a ton of gun owners in this country.

Every three years, a gun owner in Israel has to go through the screening process all over again.

Here, the excuse is always, fear the government.

Anarchy? Is that what you want? You want to return to the old wild west style of living where guns settled all issues.

That world has come and gone bro.

TOS.

I don't want anarchy any more than you do. Neither does any other law abiding gun owner. Fear the government, you bet I do. The people who are running our government have proven themselves dishonest many times over. And anyone who would replace them would be no better. I've seen where you have bashed Bush a number of times- rightfully so- but you aren't holding Obama to the same standard. He is no better or more worthy to be trusted than anyone else, but you seem to turn a blind eye to that. Power corrupts, and all of the candidates I've seen run for office from both parties over the last twenty years without exception have no interest on anything. But power. Maybe my take on the current political situation is jaded, but I think not. I feel that you put far too much trust on people whose interest is only on gaining in acquiring more and more power, at our expense. By reading your posts I feel that you are loyal to your candidates and ideals, but I fear your loyalty is misplaced. These people will turn on you just as soon as it is expedient. Government is not the answer. Too often it is the problem.


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[Babagounj]

" security of a free state " , now TOS in all your posts you seem to not comment on this part , why ?

 

[The Other Side]

I don't want anarchy any more than you do. Neither does any other law abiding gun owner. Fear the government, you bet I do. The people who are running our government have proven themselves dishonest many times over. And anyone who would replace them would be no better. I've seen where you have bashed Bush a number of times- rightfully so- but you aren't holding Obama to the same standard. He is no better or more worthy to be trusted than anyone else, but you seem to turn a blind eye to that. Power corrupts, and all of the candidates I've seen run for office from both parties over the last twenty years without exception have no interest on anything. But power. Maybe my take on the current political situation is jaded, but I think not. I feel that you put far too much trust on people whose interest is only on gaining in acquiring more and more power, at our expense. By reading your posts I feel that you are loyal to your candidates and ideals, but I fear your loyalty is misplaced. These people will turn on you just as soon as it is expedient. Government is not the answer. Too often it is the problem.


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I dont fear the government nor do I support all that it does. What I do support is our system of government for I know that change can be made every 4 years at the top. At the longest, it may be 8 years, but its still open to change.

TO live a life where a person thinks that the country is going to end in 4 years is silly at best.

Look, BUSH jacked this country up worse than most people on this board are willing to admit. To them, its just a political game that ended the day Obama took office.

The extent of the damage will last for decades and it will take a man like Obama to turn it around.

Ignoring the obvious is what people on the right want to do with history. Am I happy with the ACA? No, it has problems, but it also has success stories by the thousands.

I am willing to give it a chance to work itself out just like social security did and the many times it had to be fixed after it was launched.

For me, rather than spending TRILLIONS of dollars in useless wars that never needed to happen, I prefer my government to spend that money HERE in the USA. Rather than spending trillions on free healthcare for Iraqis, I would prefer healthcare for americans. Same in afghanistan, another waste of 2 billion a week.

Rather than buying all my products with a MADE IN CHINA stamped on them, I want products made in america.

The real power hungry politicians right now are the republicans who are desperate to regain power. They are doing everything possible to hurt this country instead of working with president obama on fixing it.

They (republicans) just cut benefits to veterans, this right after two wars that injured or killed thousands of our troops.

Our returned troops are recieving the most in welfare and foodstamps, and that is just disgraceful.

President Obama tried to come into office and be a uniter, but since day one, Mitch McConnell said he wanted Obama to fail and he was going to do everything possible to see that it happened.

Well, the president has left these s at the side of the road and he is moving forward with trying to fix this country.

You label it "POWER GRABBING" and the rest of the america labels it "TAKING CHARGE".

Our system of politics is broken. Too many special interest groups now control both parties.

The game now is to drive wedges in between us all and polarize us to one side or the other and then fight for the middle. They dont care what is said or who they offend, they just want us to fight with each other.

Its working.

TOS.

 

[realbrown1]

They (republicans) just cut benefits to veterans, this right after two wars that injured or killed thousands of our troops.
TOS.

The (republicans) can't do anything by themselves. They only control the House. If benefits to veterans were cut, the Senate and Obama would have to approve, and last I saw, the Senate was controlled by Democrats and Obama is a too.
So stop lying about (republicans). It just makes you look desperate.

 

[The Other Side]

The (republicans) can't do anything by themselves. They only control the House. If benefits to veterans were cut, the Senate and Obama would have to approve, and last I saw, the Senate was controlled by Democrats and Obama is a too.
So stop lying about (republicans). It just makes you look desperate.

What is desperate my friend is your oblivion to REAL political actions.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/veterans-benefits-senate-republicans-104060.html

Maybe you should invest yourself in learning what the republicans are doing, vs. pretending they have our veterans best interests at heart.

The Hawks like starting wars, but they dont like taking care of the disabled veterans they create afterwards.

TOS.

 

[realbrown1]

What is desperate my friend is your oblivion to REAL political actions.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/veterans-benefits-senate-republicans-104060.html

Maybe you should invest yourself in learning what the republicans are doing, vs. pretending they have our veterans best interests at heart.

The Hawks like starting wars, but they dont like taking care of the disabled veterans they create afterwards.

TOS.

Politico. Thats you source. Might as well use acorn as a source. They hate Republicans and love the Democrats and you can tell it in every story that they put out.

 

[The Other Side]

Politico. Thats you source. Might as well use acorn as a source. They hate Republicans and love the Democrats and you can tell it in every story that they put out.

Of course, when you cant deny the obvious, deny the source and the actual facts.

You people crack me up. You "think" ( and i use the term loosely) that the republican party is your friend.

Thanks for the laugh.

TOS.

 

[realbrown1]

Everywhere in the USA with tough gun control laws, the murder rate is sky high. (Washington DC, Detroit, Chicago)
Gun control doesn't work.

 

[realbrown1]

What is desperate my friend is your oblivion to REAL political actions.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/veterans-benefits-senate-republicans-104060.html

Maybe you should invest yourself in learning what the republicans are doing, vs. pretending they have our veterans best interests at heart.

The Hawks like starting wars, but they dont like taking care of the disabled veterans they create afterwards.

TOS.

One of us is a veteran. It's not you. I think I can react better at what is happening with the vet than you can.
While I was over seas, you where? Taking a crap for 4 years?

 

[The Other Side]

View attachment 11576
Everywhere in the USA with tough gun control laws, the murder rate is sky high. (Washington DC, Detroit, Chicago)
Gun control doesn't work.

Every gun nut in this country attempts to use Switzerland as an example of an armed society, but unfortunately, what those same gun freaks dont understand is that Switzerland doesnt have a STANDING ARMY and their citizens are the ARMY of the country.

Thats a HUGE difference between private ownership of guns and an armed militia.

Of course, I know you dont understand the difference Real, and just play along with rhetoric, but its ok, I get it.

TOS.

 

[realbrown1]

Thats a HUGE difference between private ownership of guns and an armed militia.
TOS.

There is no difference between private ownership and an armed militia. A bunch of people with guns is a militia.
I was at a gun show last weekend, in Ontario, and let me tell you, they weren't selling sling shots. This is military grade stuff. In the hands of ordinary citizens. Are you scared TOS? Are you?

 

[oldngray]

Every gun nut in this country attempts to use Switzerland as an example of an armed society, but unfortunately, what those same gun freaks dont understand is that Switzerland doesnt have a STANDING ARMY and their citizens are the ARMY of the country.

Thats a HUGE difference between private ownership of guns and an armed militia.

Of course, I know you dont understand the difference Real, and just play along with rhetoric, but its ok, I get it.

TOS.

You need to check your sources. Switzerland DOES have a standing army. Its just not big and most people serve their mandatory enlistment then remain on reserve status. I know someone who had to do something as silly as serve with tanks (which are basically useless in the mountainous terrain of Switzerland but they do have them ) - which shows armies tend to do stupid things worldwide.

 

[The Other Side]

There is no difference between private ownership and an armed militia. A bunch of people with guns is a militia.
I was at a gun show last weekend, in Ontario, and let me tell you, they weren't selling sling shots. This is military grade stuff. In the hands of ordinary citizens. Are you scared TOS? Are you?

What "I" fear, is some whacked out gun owner who goes nuts because his life takes a giant crap on him and then he decides to take it out on society with his precious arsenal and camo gear.

That is my genuine fear.

I dont live in chicago, nor do i visit gang neighborhoods, so those types of "gun owners" dont bother me. Its the suburban xanex taking, depressed ex vet type that worries me most of all.

Just look at the military suicide rates after the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the highest ever recorded by our military. These men are coming home and shooting themselves and their wives and kids in some instances, and its only a matter of time before they transition to shooting everyday americans.

The trends are there Real, whether you want to accept them or not. You can choose to ignore them and pretend to want to own guns so you can stand on the shoreline defending the homeland, but I dont live in that dreamworld.

Sorry bro as an american, I fear you.

TOS.

 

[The Other Side]

You need to check your sources. Switzerland DOES have a standing army. Its just not big and most people serve their mandatory enlistment then remain on reserve status. I know someone who had to do something as silly as serve with tanks (which are basically useless in the mountainous terrain of Switzerland but they do have them ) - which shows armies tend to do stupid things worldwide.

GRAY, again, do some better research.

TOS.

 

[oldngray]

GRAY, again, do some better research.

TOS.

I did. You were the one making things up. What do you claim I said was untrue? Provide links to prove me wrong.

 

[The Other Side]

I did. You were the one making things up. What do you claim I said was untrue? Provide links to prove me wrong.

You are wrong on many counts. Lets start with your premise that Switzerland has a standing army. The official army of Switzerland makes up only 5% of the entire militia system. All able bodied males are required to join the militia.

They do in fact, get assigned weapons, they do in fact get to keep those weapons "at the ready", but where you ERR is this.

In 2007, they NO LONGER GET TO HAVE AMMO AT HOME.

ALL AMMO must be kept in the "ARMORY" and in some cases, so do weapons. Just because they have their militia assigned weapons, they have NO BULLETS.

Like I said, you need to do better research on the subject rather than just repeating some ridiculous rhetoric from the NRA types.

I would welcome a system where we "mirrored" Switzerland, and allowed you gun people to own guns without bullets.

Sounds like a winning plan.

excerpt:

Army-issued arms and ammunition collection success[edit]
The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus). Up until October 2007, ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while travelling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.[5]

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.[citation needed] Keeping the weapon after end of service requires a license.

The government sponsors training with rifles and shooting in competitions for interested adolescents, both male and female.

 

[oldngray]

You are wrong on many counts. Lets start with your premise that Switzerland has a standing army. The official army of Switzerland makes up only 5% of the entire militia system. All able bodied males are required to join the militia.

They do in fact, get assigned weapons, they do in fact get to keep those weapons "at the ready", but where you ERR is this.

In 2007, they NO LONGER GET TO HAVE AMMO AT HOME.

ALL AMMO must be kept in the "ARMORY" and in some cases, so do weapons. Just because they have their militia assigned weapons, they have NO BULLETS.

Like I said, you need to do better research on the subject rather than just repeating some ridiculous rhetoric from the NRA types.

I would welcome a system where we "mirrored" Switzerland, and allowed you gun people to own guns without bullets.

Sounds like a winning plan.

excerpt:

Army-issued arms and ammunition collection success[edit]
The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus). Up until October 2007, ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while travelling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.[5]

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.[citation needed] Keeping the weapon after end of service requires a license.

The government sponsors training with rifles and shooting in competitions for interested adolescents, both male and female.

You just confirmed my post that there IS a standing army. And the citizens there can buy their own ammo for their weapons. They just can't use their issued ammunition for personal use. That makes sense since it ensures they will have ammunition if they are needed. And when their period of service ends they are allowed to keep their personal assault weapon as their own, they just need a license for it.
You need to take a course in reading comprehension.

 

[The Other Side]

You just confirmed my post that there IS a standing army. And the citizens there can buy their own ammo for their weapons. They just can't use their issued ammunition for personal use. That makes sense since it ensures they will have ammunition if they are needed. And when their period of service ends they are allowed to keep their personal assault weapon as their own, they just need a license for it.
You need to take a course in reading comprehension.

Well, I see you have your exaggeration license already. Service ends at 30 years old, 34 years for officers. They can keep the weapons providing they OBTAIN a license which requires several tests and qualifications. ALL ammo is stored in the "ARMORY" and only special forces or police can store it at home.

Your idea of a standing army at 5% is laughable at best. The 5% makes up the chain of command, officers and such and not pure rank and file. Somebody has to be in charge and there has to be a governmental chain of command.

Also, your wrong again about citizens being able to store ammo, but thats nothing new. Read this.
http://concealed.wordpress.com/2007/10/27/switzerland-strips-all-citizens-of-gun-rights/

You better not rely on your "friend" for your facts. He has been wrong on everything so far, and you as well.

Additionally, in switzerland, like the original militias of the USA, they dont allow OLD GOATS to be in the militia.

TOS.

 

[oldngray]

Well, I see you have your exaggeration license already. Service ends at 30 years old, 34 years for officers. They can keep the weapons providing they OBTAIN a license which requires several tests and qualifications. ALL ammo is stored in the "ARMORY" and only special forces or police can store it at home.

Your idea of a standing army at 5% is laughable at best. The 5% makes up the chain of command, officers and such and not pure rank and file. Somebody has to be in charge and there has to be a governmental chain of command.

Also, your wrong again about citizens being able to store ammo, but thats nothing new. Read this.
http://concealed.wordpress.com/2007/10/27/switzerland-strips-all-citizens-of-gun-rights/

You better not rely on your "friend" for your facts. He has been wrong on everything so far, and you as well.

Additionally, in switzerland, like the original militias of the USA, they dont allow OLD GOATS to be in the militia.

TOS.

5% is still a standing army so you admit you were wrong on that point. And as for your other point about ammunition you are wrong again. That law only referred to the free military ammunition and people are allowed to buy all of the ammo they want with their own money.

There is no restriction on possessing personally purchased ammunition capable of being used in their issued weapon, and such ammunition is readily available in shops and at many firing ranges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

btw my "friend" lives in Switzerland and is a computer programmer at a physics lab (similar to CERN but on other side of country). He did serve his mandatory time in the military there.

 

[The Other Side]

Its tough to watch you struggle to sound relevant on this subject. You link a wikipedia story and then forget to READ it yourself.

You said "There is no restriction on possessing personally purchased ammunition capable of being used in their issued weapon, and such ammunition is readily available in shops and at many firing ranges."

What YOU DIDNT READ was the last part of the paragraph: let me help you out...

"There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there."

Hopefully by highlighting this sentence, you will actually read it. Now, Like I said, swiss citizens CANNOT store ammo at home. Your "friend" is giving you bogus information.

Give this one up.

TOS.