oldngray
nowhere special
You can try to explain away the correlation between more guns and less crime to other causes but from the data you can make no case for more guns equals more crime.
guns
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
You can try to explain away the correlation between more guns and less crime to other causes but from the data you can make no case for more guns equals more crime.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
But the numbers blow a gaping hole...no pun intended....in the argument that "guns are to blame for crime".
The number of privately owned guns continues to climb, the number of people licensed to carry concealed handguns continues to climb, yet the number of murders and gun crime continues to drop.
Whether or not increased gun ownership has a direct downward effect on crime is actually irrelevant. What is relevant is that the case for increased restrictions upon our 2nd Amendment rights in the name of public safety simply cannot be made based upon the numbers. We have more guns and we have less crime and there is no way for Bloomberg and Feinstein and their ilk to get around that simple fact.
But that's not the case I'm making. I am saying that the simplistic and statistically unfounded claim by many around here, yourself included, that more guns = less crime, is one of two things: lazy statistical analysis or intentionally misleading propaganda. And the reverse statistically can't even be proven yet either. The sample size of shall issue, concea/carry, and other NRA dream scenarios isn't yet large enough to make the claims you are making. Even if 10 million people were carrying tomorrow, that stat alone would mean nothing.
Really? Your whole argument has been that less restrictive gun laws lead to less crime and now you say that that isn't even relevant?
728ups
All Trash No Trailer
Authorities: Man kills 4 children, 2 adults in Texas shooting
(CNN) -- A man shot and killed four children and two adults Wednesday at a Houston-area home belonging to relatives of his estranged wife, authorities said.
A seventh person, a 15-year-old girl, was critically wounded in the shooting near Spring, Texas, and taken to a local hospital.
Ron Lee Haskell was arrested after a three-hour standoff that followed a short chase with sheriff's deputies. Haskell, 34, is being held on charges of capital murder, Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Ron Hickman said.
Killed were Stephen Stay, 39; Katie Stay, 33; two boys, ages 13 and 4; and two girls, ages 9 and 7, the Harris County Sheriff's Office said.
Police said Haskell entered the home demanding to know the whereabouts of his estranged wife, who was not there.
The house belonged to relatives of Haskell's spouse, and Haskell might have been an uncle by marriage to at least some of the children, but his relationship to everyone in the home wasn't immediately clear, Hickman said.
"I've not personally in 40 years seen a tragedy in one family that's this horrific," he told reporters Thursday morning.
Officials: Suspect was prepared to take more lives
Haskell, apparently posing as a parcel delivery driver late Wednesday afternoon, entered the home of one of his estranged wife's relatives while only the children were there, Hickman said.
Wearing a purple "Fed-Ex-looking shirt," the suspect "gathered up the children" and waited for the two adults to arrive, he said.
Haskell was not the slain children's father, as police had mistakenly asserted earlier, Hickman said.
Haskell used to drive for a service that had a contract with FedEx, but not since January, FedEx spokeswoman Erin Truxal said.
Investigators didn't immediately know what led to the shooting; Hickman described it as a "domestic situation."
Authorities believe the suspect was prepared to take the lives of other relatives who lived nearby.
As the gunman left, one of the victims called police and notified "us of the location that she believed that he may go from there," Hickman said.
"Grandparents were also targets of him," Harris County Sheriff's Sgt. Thomas Gilliland said. "Fortunately, they were brought out of the house before that could happen, (or) we would have had more tragedy."
Hours-long standoff
Haskell approached the second home and saw officers there; he drove away and the officers pursued him, Hickman said.
Police trapped Haskell in a cul-de-sac, and he surrendered after about three hours, having had discussions with negotiators, Hickman and Gilliland said.
During much of the standoff, Haskell held a gun to his head, while deputies surrounded him with their weapons drawn, police said.
Haskell has children with his estranged wife, but those children were not believed to have been in the Spring-area home where the shootings happened, Hickman said. The estranged wife lives out of state, police said.
Haskell is expected to make his first court appearance Friday at 9 a.m., the county clerk's office said.
(CNN) -- A man shot and killed four children and two adults Wednesday at a Houston-area home belonging to relatives of his estranged wife, authorities said.
A seventh person, a 15-year-old girl, was critically wounded in the shooting near Spring, Texas, and taken to a local hospital.
Ron Lee Haskell was arrested after a three-hour standoff that followed a short chase with sheriff's deputies. Haskell, 34, is being held on charges of capital murder, Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Ron Hickman said.
Killed were Stephen Stay, 39; Katie Stay, 33; two boys, ages 13 and 4; and two girls, ages 9 and 7, the Harris County Sheriff's Office said.
Police said Haskell entered the home demanding to know the whereabouts of his estranged wife, who was not there.
The house belonged to relatives of Haskell's spouse, and Haskell might have been an uncle by marriage to at least some of the children, but his relationship to everyone in the home wasn't immediately clear, Hickman said.
"I've not personally in 40 years seen a tragedy in one family that's this horrific," he told reporters Thursday morning.
Officials: Suspect was prepared to take more lives
Haskell, apparently posing as a parcel delivery driver late Wednesday afternoon, entered the home of one of his estranged wife's relatives while only the children were there, Hickman said.
Wearing a purple "Fed-Ex-looking shirt," the suspect "gathered up the children" and waited for the two adults to arrive, he said.
Haskell was not the slain children's father, as police had mistakenly asserted earlier, Hickman said.
Haskell used to drive for a service that had a contract with FedEx, but not since January, FedEx spokeswoman Erin Truxal said.
Investigators didn't immediately know what led to the shooting; Hickman described it as a "domestic situation."
Authorities believe the suspect was prepared to take the lives of other relatives who lived nearby.
As the gunman left, one of the victims called police and notified "us of the location that she believed that he may go from there," Hickman said.
"Grandparents were also targets of him," Harris County Sheriff's Sgt. Thomas Gilliland said. "Fortunately, they were brought out of the house before that could happen, (or) we would have had more tragedy."
Hours-long standoff
Haskell approached the second home and saw officers there; he drove away and the officers pursued him, Hickman said.
Police trapped Haskell in a cul-de-sac, and he surrendered after about three hours, having had discussions with negotiators, Hickman and Gilliland said.
During much of the standoff, Haskell held a gun to his head, while deputies surrounded him with their weapons drawn, police said.
Haskell has children with his estranged wife, but those children were not believed to have been in the Spring-area home where the shootings happened, Hickman said. The estranged wife lives out of state, police said.
Haskell is expected to make his first court appearance Friday at 9 a.m., the county clerk's office said.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
From a Constitutional perspective, yes.
Glad to see good hard working christians armed in the home protecting the family.
TOS.
TOS.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
What does this have to do with gun control or the 2nd Amendment?
Are you saying that a man who intended to commit the crime of murder would have been deterred from doing so by laws that made it illegal for him to carry a gun?
Here's another question...were the adult victims armed and able to defend themselves or the children? Or did they subscribe to the Bloombergian theory of safety through unarmed helplessness?
728ups
All Trash No Trailer
yeah it's a bit different perspective when a face is put to people murdered in cold blood by a gun isnt it?
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You didnt answer the question.
728ups
All Trash No Trailer
The only answer I have concerning this family is that Yes, it certainly is a horrible tragedy that an entire family was wiped out by a mad man with a Gun.
DriveInDriveOut
Inordinately Right
I haven't seen any reports of where he obtained the gun so it's hard to say, but there are some facts that certainly raise some questions. I honestly doubt he had a gun legally after all of this, but if he did, it's a complete failure of common sense gun laws:
He has a history of domestic abuse. The ex-wife, the original target, has a restraining order that was violated the day it was issued (the charge was dismissed).
He has a history of stealing firearms. His own mother reported him for stealing her husband's firearms in a previous domestic violence dispute. (the guns were confiscated by San Diego county sheriff department with no arrest wtf?)
He has a history of mental illness. His own brother reported him to the police for a mental welfare check when he was going through his divorce last year, but later called it off.
As recently as July 2nd, he tied his mother to a chair and choked her. A restraining order was issued but AGAIN no arrest was made... wtf?
This guy should have been in jail, not on the streets with a gun.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Yes, it is a horrible tragedy.
It would be nice if there were some quick fix, some easy law that we could pass that would prevent such tragedies from happening.
Unfortunately, there isn't one.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You know what a "restraining order" is?
Its a piece of paper that tells a violent, abusive criminal to stop behaving like a violent abusive criminal.
Unfortunately, violent abusive criminals have in the past been known to ignore the words that are printed on those pieces of paper and to act like violent abusive criminals towards the people who sent them those pieces of paper.
Our society has a system in place that is supposed to protect us from violent abusive criminals. Unfortunately, that system doesn't always work. We all depend upon that system to keep us safe, but common sense dictates that anytime you depend on something you should have a backup plan in case what you are depending on fails. My "backup plan" holds six 158-grain hollowpoints and it is a helluva lot more effective at stopping a violent abusive criminal than a piece of paper ever will be.
Last edited:
728ups
All Trash No Trailer
I'm certain that is comforting to the victims famlies
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Perhaps the outcome might have been different had the parents been armed.
We will never know.
DriveInDriveOut
Inordinately Right
A restraining order is just a piece of paper.
However, violating a restraining order should have landed him in jail. Stealing guns should have landed him in jail. A call to the police for a welfare check for mental problems should have gotten him psychiatric help. Tying his mother to a chair and choking her until she passed out should have landed him in jail.
This guy shouldn't have been on the streets, he certainly shouldn't have been delivering packages for fedex ground. O sorry, I forgot, he was just an "independent contractor".
Similar threads
