President Obama!

wkmac

Well-Known Member
In light of the passage of Obamacare and some aspects of it, I found this article (circa 2003') from the infamous, conservative Heritage Foundation on having universal healthcare very interesting. Also, the conservative AEI (American Enterprise Institute) announced that it has terminated the employ of neo-con warmonger David Frum over his critical opines at republicans for opposing state healthcare. Seems most of the other "experts" at AEI were also muzzled for voicing their favorable standing towards it also! Bruce Bartlett, Reagan supply sider and Treasury official under Daddy Bush exposed these happenings but I can see the need to qwell public comment in order to fool the rubes, red state rubes that is!

As I already said, the republicans don't oppose what Obama did, they just oppose that they weren't the ones doing it!




:rofl:
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
And we all pay for coverage of our Seniors thru FICA Medicare, which also stabilizes Society....

.

You wouldn't be referring to the same FICA medicare system that will be completely broke before the end of this decade would you? The same system that fewer and fewer doctors are willing to accept because they lose money with each patient they see. Is this program what you would call a stunning success?
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I know your mind is made up AV8, but again for others who want to break the chains of their beloved Right Wing Conservative web sights, look what's actually in the package. It's watered down IMO, but it's better than constantly getting tea-bagged by the Ins Co's...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html

I'm thinking nobody would be surprised the NY Times would leave more than a couple things out. This bill was so great our government had to pass laws to change it already before the ink even dried. What a joke. The changes are here.

.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
I was under the impression that the final bill was strikingly similar to what the Republicans proposed in '93. More evidence that Wk is right and the right has lost it's historical perspective in messy politics.
 

tieguy

Banned
I was under the impression that the final bill was strikingly similar to what the Republicans proposed in '93. More evidence that Wk is right and the right has lost it's historical perspective in messy politics.


I'm sure your impressions are certified and documented? Could you share that documentation with us?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I wonder why Obama and crew did not try that approach. Seems it would have been far less likely to get struck down by the courts and they would get the same amount of control.

IMO, the short answer is politics. We can both piss in each others Wheaties all day but I think we can both agree that very little seperates the 2 political parties that run things when you boil it all down. At that point, it just becomes a huge exercise in all the hogs slogging up to get fed. Even from the standpoint of a social insurance system, does it really take 2000 plus pages to do all that? I mean something as simple as shifting the cost and control burden of healthcare to gov't takes 2000 pages? A 20 page law can't fatten the pot for all those loyal lawmakers, for all those special interests, both corp. and public who are positioning for both power and influence. Besides, if one party didn't act as opposition, what's the point of having a 2 party system? Why is wrestling interesting if no one donns the bad guy mask? And if they are all of one mindset and one party, what happens when things go wrong? Think about this!

There is no 2 politcal parties, just one. Everyone is the same so now they enact some legislation and it goes wrong, who do you blame? In the past we always blamed either the democrats or the republicans in themselves and never attached to any other entity. We do this based on who holds/held more seats of power and controlled the political agenda at the time. It's a pure visual thing. When things go wrong, you just blame one side and switch to the other team come election day and problem solved. When it goes bad with the new team, you just switch back. But what happens if it goes bad and there is no other team? Everyone is on the same team so who gets the blame? Now we look and ask, since there's only one team, whose interests do they represent and behind that is the State itself although that's just another mask for a heirarchy in and of itself. The risk is we might actually look, see and blame the real source behind the continuing wrongs that befall us no matter which political party holds power.

I hear so much screaming about the gov't becoming an arm of the socialist international under Obama and that good ole' American Capitalism is being destroyed by these evil communists from Chicago. Vince McMahon couldn't have written a better WWF script had he tired in a 1000 years. American Capitalism has been in on the rig all along and we've been to blinded to see it. This is just the smallest tip of the iceberg but case in point. May 2005', Washington Times under the title "Capitalist Socialism".

America is at a crossroads, thanks to the combinationof UnitedAirlines' record $10 billion pension default and the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.'s operating deficit. A major challenge to conservative thinking is taking shape before our eyes. Capitalists are urging socialist measures to address the looming pension crisis. Unless clear thinking prevails in Congress, American corporations will succeed in shifting their employee obligations from the private sector onto the taxpayers.
This goes far beyond corporate welfare. The new deal corporations are seeking in a global economy is to offload their costs onto government, while preserving transnational access to markets, consumers and labor. We saw the glimmerings of this nascent era of capitalist-socialism in the 2004 presidential campaign. CEOs from smokestack and high-tech industries supported the concept of universal health-care as a way to shed the burden of employer-provided health insurance. And no wonder. With the annual price of premiums rising at double-digit rates, health insurance now ranks alongside pension benefits as costs that sink troubled companies into bankruptcy.
U.S. corporations are fighting for survival in an increasingly competitive global economy, trying to keep up with competitors operating in countries where most workforce benefits, from health-care to pensions, are either provided by government or non-existent. Sending jobs offshore is one response; cutting benefits at home in order to trim labor costs is another. Whether they individually want to or not, the pressures of globalism are forcing America's CEOs into becoming the vanguard of capitalist-socialism.

We live under an illusion that capitalism is free market and thus by extension promotes a society of individual freedom and limited gov't as well. This is an absolute pure illusion, a fiction. Today's capitalist corp. are about cartels, monopolies, market protections, favored status and profits at any and all costs. I got no problem with profits, profit and gain from one's efforts and labor are good and welcome but does this negate that one's profits and gain must be done in an honest manner by one's own hand and not using others via manipulation (using the force of the State) to position one's self with economic advantage to make said profit? If one's business model necessitates the use of gov't to profit then that model is unsustainable and using true free market principles are a misallocation of resources and should be completely abandoned. This would allow the free choice in the marketplace to move it's resources to other models that may offer sustainability and if those models prove otherwise the marketplace should and will abandon those. It's only by the State itself that we've been locked into business models that lack marketplace sustainablity and thus the continuing interventions by the State to keep them going. The Washington Times article above is just one more example of the social capitialist system we've had the last century plus including the improper way property is distributed by the State itself. (Hey Jones, think anyone is ready to move backwards beyond Locke and the Enclosure movement?:wink2: that can of worms?)

One other little tidbit for ya AV and you might enjoy this although you may not like what you find. Art. 6 of your beloved Constitution has the infamous Supremacy Clause which I know you are aware of but look real close at it. In the first part of clause 2 it sez:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof

and on that alone your standing on a lot of what you say is rock solid. Now you'll get argued back the welfare clause, etc. to support larger gov't but on those standing Dezzie and da boyz are wrong BUT they are absolutely correct that gov't has the authority and the correct standing in implementing all this welfare and they have the full and complete backing of the Constitution and all of it is Constitutional. That's right, all this stuff is completely valid under constitutional law. How? Just read the very next part of the Supremacy Clause and then hit the law library and do your homework and research as it's all there to see.

Here's the Supremacy Clause entirely:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

And just which nation has been the driving force over the last 100 years plus in treaty law, international economic law, etc. and which nation created and is homecourt to the largest international law body on the planet otherwise known as the United Nations? Who pushed the WTO, GATT, NAFTA? And whose behind this nation? Socialist Capitalism!

Brett above asked a good question about the "broke FICA Medicare system" and I think a major driving force behind universal healthcare whether it be ObamaCare, RomneyCare, BushCare was the obvious, growing problem facing Medicare going forward. Diesel, TOS, Klein, etc. can all rejoice that we got what is being said is a universal healthcare system but also understand this. The system you got is a privatized system controlled by the very monsters you said caused the problem to begin with. The evidence is there to see to support this and over time the results will bare this out but here's the comical irony. In time, the red staters will come to champion this program, oh they'll have to spin up some with a fresh coat of paint to proclaim "The Capitalist Way!" but they'll love the private side none the less just like they love the private monopoly of money in the Federal Reserve. But the other part will be you guys on the onehand having to love it since your new 21st century FDR created it (party loyality, you know the Reagan opposite! LOL!) while somehow twisting in the wind to decry it. But take heart, the repubs will put enough of their face in it over time that you can denounce it without bashing your zero.....I mean heros!
:happy-very:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
More on Capitalist Socialism.

Sheldon Richman of The Freeman and Future of Freedom Foundation gave a lecture to the economics folks at Western New England College and he elaborated his remarks further in an article today at The Freeman. Entitled, "Wishful Thinking on Healthcare" I found the following very informative when one considers the myth of our capitialist system being opposed to socialism and a dedicated disciple and adherant to all things free market and true individual liberty.

For a century the foundation of medicine in the United States has steadily shifted from cooperation and competition to compulsion and management through government power. In 1910 the Flexner Report, financed by the Carnegie Foundation, set in motion the process by which medical education and practice would be regulated by a physician cartel deriving its coercive power from government primarily at the state level. While the need for such management was publicly justified as a way to protect patients, what doctors told one another when no one else could hear was that their incomes not their patients were endangered by too many medical schools graduating too many doctors. Over the next 20 years, many independent medical colleges were closed. Was it mere chance that women’s and African-American medical colleges were the first to go and that, as a result, the smaller, more lucrative medical profession was firmly white and male?
Since that time, coercive administration – primarily in the form of state licensing – more and more took the place of patient-driven contract, competition, and cooperation. When fraternal organizations tried to bring affordable medical care to their middle- and low-income members through “lodge practice,” the protectionist medical cartel struck back and eventually destroyed this promising alternative to self-serving institutional medicine. During World War II the crucial, if inadvertent, step was taken toward top-down control of the payment mechanism. The tax code became the means of inducing individuals to rely on employers and insurance for medical services. Money individually and privately spent on medical care would be subject to the tax collector, while money that one’s employer used for the same purpose would not. The result, intended or not, was to accustom people to rely on big intimidating bureaucracies for the payment of medical bills. Health care appeared to be free or well below its true cost — as long as the relevant bureaucracy approved of what was bought. The entitlement frame of mind was established, which served the cause of centralization and further control by the government-medical complex. OPR is another step in that process.

When one starts to understand the true history, it is fair to blame state capitialism for the mess but it becomes obvious that true laissez faire free markets were not a part of that equation and in fact trampled in the name of market protection. For more in understanding the historical difference between Capitalism and Free Markets, Sheldon's recent lecture at George Mason University entitled Capitialism verses the Free Market gives a very good historical overview going back several centuries to Europe and then coming forward.

Ain't it amazing how clear the picture starts to become when true transparency and freedom of ideas and thoughts start to rule the day instead of a very narrow, controlled political construct. Where's Big Media at in all of this? Where again does Big Media obtain it's revenue?:surprised:
:wink2::peaceful:

Hey Baba, notice that part about WW2 and employers? You nailed dude!
:thumbsup:
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
One other little tidbit for ya AV and you might enjoy this although you may not like what you find. Art. 6 of your beloved Constitution has the infamous Supremacy Clause which I know you are aware of but look real close at it. Now you'll get argued back the welfare clause, etc. to support larger gov't but on those standing Dezzie and da boyz are wrong BUT they are absolutely correct that gov't has the authority and the correct standing in implementing all this welfare and they have the full and complete backing of the Constitution and all of it is Constitutional. That's right, all this stuff is completely valid under constitutional law. How? Just read the very next part of the Supremacy Clause and then hit the law library and do your homework and research as it's all there to see.

:

Well first of all and I do not think you are suggesting this but the federal government cannot just pass any law they want because the federal government is supreme. The laws they pass must be pursuant to the constitution. If you do your research you will find that the courts have upheld tenth amendment challenges in the past and I hope they do the same here. The politicians have gotten better over the years at passing laws to skirt the tenth amendment by taking money from the citizens through their right of taxation and then give the money back to the states to fund programs that meet federal guidelines. Think of Louisiana and the highway fund with regards to their drinking age. The way they over reach the authority we as citizens gave them with taxation is a valid reason to demand the repeal of the 16th amendment. The over reaching in regards to the commerce clause is an entirely different beast not the good and commerce clause as some would suggest. In the end the power still rests with the people but it is waaay past time that the government act within the bounds of the constitution and the powers that we gave them as anything else makes them no more than a king and his court of jesters.

I would say about the other part that there can be a difference between the two parties and yes I get it that you disagree. The proof is in the pudding. It was no coincidence that the only time in recent history that the federal government shrank just happened to be when the republicans took over congress in the early 90's. I'm fairly young and may be idealistic but I'm hoping for a perfect storm. The major problem is that it would take at least two election cycles to make changes large enough in our government and the attention span of the electorate is fairly short.
 

tieguy

Banned
At and T announces a 1 billion dollar health care reform charge. One of many corporations taking this charge. Many more to come. I wonder if these corporations will be good sports about the extra expense or will they pass the cost on somewhere and somehow to the consumer.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/26/att-takes-1-billion-health-care-reform-charge/

I would think these charges to corporations also mean less tax revenues coming into the public coffers?
 

tieguy

Banned
Next point

any company with 50 or more employees can pay a fine of 2000 a year per employee per year if their employees draw federal subsidies to pay for health care.
A plan like ours costs the company approximately 8000 to 10000 a year per employee per year.
So in this plan there is a financial incentive to dump their employees on the federal subsidy program pay the fine which is much cheaper and take the savings in profits.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
At and T announces a 1 billion dollar health care reform charge. One of many corporations taking this charge. Many more to come. I wonder if these corporations will be good sports about the extra expense or will they pass the cost on somewhere and somehow to the consumer.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/26/att-takes-1-billion-health-care-reform-charge/

I would think these charges to corporations also mean less tax revenues coming into the public coffers?


Cheaper than dealing with the teamsters. It's Kinda like a reallocation of the monies. In a sense the govt is getting the whole billion not just the taxable portion of it.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
How are these big corporations going to hire and make jobs when they have to pay this tax with the health care bill......Thanks Brack !! It's jobs, buddy. America needs jobs!!! Not illegals need jobs, but Americans need jobs!
 

klein

Für Meno :)
How are these big corporations going to hire and make jobs when they have to pay this tax with the health care bill......Thanks Brack !! It's jobs, buddy. America needs jobs!!! Not illegals need jobs, but Americans need jobs!

Wow, big words ! How does the rest of the world pay for healthcare ? Which corperations and banks almost went belly up before this healthcare reform ?
Was it Volkswagen, Mercedes, Volvo, Toyota, Kia ..? ummmm, nope. Was it Deutsche Bank, Bank of Hongkong, TD Bank...? ummmm nope.
So, how in the hell does the rest of the world pay healthcare for all ?

Yes, I forgot, US has the best. And therefor it just costs so much more. Actually, maybe too much more ?
 

klein

Für Meno :)
someone report this guy for speaking to conservatives

Tie, you wanna keep bragging about your freedom of speech ?
Then go to work Monday, tell your muslim co-workers, they shouldn't be able to fly on airplanes, they should take a camel instead. Freedom of speech allows you to do that.
Don't forget to tell your children in school, to do the same.

Just because Canada has it written in thier laws, doesn't mean the USA hasn't gotten official "hidden" laws that forbid racialisum.

I know now, since I vote Conservative here, and I live under a conservative government, both federal and provincial. That it's not even close to being nazi like conservative as you are.
 
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