guns
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
moreluck
golden ticket member
moreluck
golden ticket member
How I treat Mooch is none of your business......you better hurry up, you're missing the jubilee !!!
CMON SOBER, you can do better than that. I am sure SLICK has read my posts and knows my positions better than you think. What is of interest, and continues to be the hardest to assertain, is the answers to my questions.
Both YOU or Wiggle have failed to explain the NEED to carry a weapon with you at all times.
In the case of the idiot killed at the Costco, that day probably 800 persons were in that store that day, of all those persons, ONLY Erik Scott made a decision to shop with two guns on his person. That represents 0.00125% of the population.
What motivates a person to do something like this when the rest of society doesnt feel the same way?
What did Erik Scott or YOU or Wiggle fear? Possibly a shootout with a giant box of cheerios on isle 4?
I asked you not to run away or name call. I seriously want to understand the mindset of a gun owner who has to "carry all the time". I would like to get to the pyschology behind this thinking, but I see that you will not allow us to know that.
Neither one of you wants to explain your need for guns. Its easier to just say you have a right to carry one. I happen to disagree with that. I dont believe the second amendment says such a thing.
We have debated this before, and I will debate it again if someone says that the second amendment says "the rights of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed" as if this is a stand alone sentence.
Cmon SOBER, tell me why YOU need a gun on your person at all times.
Peace
TOS
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You are a bigot because you are making unfounded, predjudiced ASSUMPTIONS about people (gun owners) whom you have not personally talked to and whom you know nothing about.
Upon what rational basis do you assert that someone who carries a gun does so because they are in FEAR? I carry a fire extinguisher in my car...does that mean I am FEARFUL of fire? I carry jumper cables in my car....does that mean I am FEARFUL of a dead battery? I carry a Leatherman multi-tool on my belt....does that mean I am FEARFUL of being without a pair of pliers? No....the decision to carry a gun, or a fire extinguisher, or a pair of jumper cables or a Leatherman or any other inantimate object is not based upon FEAR at all, it is based upon the desire to take REASONABLE PRECAUTIONS for my own safety and well being.
You are bigoted and fearful and ignorant towards a particular type of inantimate object (guns) so rather than own up to your own inedequacies, you project that FEAR onto others by making ridiculous ASSUMPTIONS about their thought processes and the size of their genitals. Have you ever spoken at length to any of the customers at the gun shops you claim to deliver to? Have you personally inspected the size of their penises to support your assertion that they carry guns in order to compensate for size inadequacies in that area? NO. You see a gun, it scares you, so you PROJECT that fear upon the person who carries it, and make all manner of idiotic ASSUMPTIONS about that person rather than deal in FACTS.
Peace
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Thats because I dont NEED to carry a weapon with me at all times.
I choose to carry a weapon with me when it is appropriate and practical for me to do so. There is a difference.
Since you fear and hate guns, you automatically regard the act of carrying one as as FEAR based behavior when in reality it is nothing more than a reasonable precaution taken by any number of rational and level-headed people for any variety of reasons.
You ASSUME that anyone who carries harbors some sort of macho fantasies about getting into a gunfight and shooting someone. You know what I do when I carry? I apologize to people when they bump into me. If someone cuts me off in traffic, or in line at the grocery store...I smile and let them. If someone insults me....I ignore it. I do these things because shooting someone is my worst nightmare and I will go to any lengths to prevent that from happening.
You want to know what I have shot with my concealed handgun over the last 15 years that I have had a permit? Well, I have yet to ever draw it or point it at any human being...but I have shot 2 deer, one dog, and a cat that had been run over and left to die by cars and and were kicking around in agony with terminal injuries by the side of the road. Every one of those animals was fortunate that I happened to cross their paths with a weapon. Coddled suburbanites in gated communities such as yourself would not deign to get your hands dirty helping an animal in such a manner...you would merely drive past, or at best call 911 and wait for some mental defective like myself with an icky yucky gun to come along and take care of such nasty business for you. I know you hate guns, but whether you like it or not they come in handy sometimes.
I'll tell you another story. My wife and I passed a guy once whose car had broken down in the middle of nowhere on our way home from the beach. It was after midnight, in an area with no cell reception. To make matters worse (for him) he was black, a rarity here in Oregon and a fact that pretty much guranteed that NOBODY in the rural, redneck part of the state that we were in was going to stop and pick him up. I am not in the habit of picking up hitchhikers myself, regardless of color or location, but I thought about it and realized (a) this poor guy had a real problem on his hands and (b) the risks of picking up an unknown hitchiker in the middle of nowhere were at least somewhat mitigated by the fact that I was ARMED. I talked with my wife and she agreed that we should help the guy, so we turned around and picked him up. I had my wife drive; he sat in the front seat; and I sat in the back seat directly behind him. He was a nice enough guy who was simply having car trouble, and we drove him up the road a few miles to a town where he could call a tow truck and arrange to get a room for the night. No big deal really, it was the right thing to do, but it was NOT a risk I would have been willing to take had I not been ARMED. That guy benefitted from the fact that I was carrying...and he didnt even know it.
I live in a semi-rural area of an economically depressed state. There are parks and beaches and other places that my wife and I like to visit where there isnt any cell phone reception at all, or even if there is it might take the county sheriff 45 minutes to an hour to respond to a 911 call. We love to walk on the beach in the moonlight. Oregon is a beautiful place, but it also has a METH problem and you never know where or when you might run into a tweaker whose only desire is to feed his addiction by ripping you off. For me carrying a gun is a reasonable precaution for any number of legitimate reasons that someone like you who fears and hates guns simply cannot comprehend.
Peace
Last edited:
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
I have no data for the state of Nevada, but I can tell you that the state of Florida has issued over 2 million concealed carry permits since 1987 and it has a total population of just under 20 million.
Another fact is that 41 states are either "unrestricted"(no permit required for concealed carry) or "shall-issue" (qualified applicants must be issued permits upon completion of required training) in regards to the rights of their citizens to carry concealed weapons.
41 states. 2 million permits in Florida out of a population of 20 million. Your statement that "the rest of society doesnt feel that way" is pure hogwash. YOU may not feel that way, but a substantial portion of our society DOES.
Peace
Last edited:
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
What you believe in regards to this issue means NOTHING. What the Supreme Court has ruled in regards to this issue...in McDonald vs. Chicago and in District of Columbia vs Heller....means EVERYTHING.
Peace
Ok, interesting perspective, but not really the answers to the questions I posed. Im interested in your "need" to carry, pyschologically speaking. You said this "....you automatically regard the act of carrying one as as FEAR based behavior when in reality it is nothing more than a reasonable precaution taken by any number of rational and level-headed people for any variety of reasons.""
This is exactly my point when I say gun owners "convince" themselves that they are taking a proactive approach to carrying a weapon. You say you are taking a "reasonable precaution" and it is not "fear based", but actually, it is. You further the point by saying that any number of rational level headed people would do the same?
Really? I dont think so.
First, your reasonable precaution is a SECONDARY THOUGHT and not a primary thought. Lets put it in an example. Before you walk out the door, you have already decided to bring a gun with you, Ok? But what thought process went into that decision? If you are going to McDonalds to pick up breakfast for the family, do you factor in what gun you will need to accomplish this task and how many bullets you will need?
Clearly, in your mind, your reasonable precaution is based upon the circumstances that you will be experiencing while you leave your home. As you think this out, you are factoring in conditions, areas and people and somehow, you are fearful enough to establish that you need to bring a gun with you.
This isnt a reasonable precaution, its a reactionary overreaction to an insecurity. Pretty simple to understand. You believe (while untrue in pyschology) that you are taking a proactive position when in fact your thought processes are merely re-active processes.
While a gun owner who feels the need to "carry at all times" cannot seem to explain this in any detail on this board with a rational explanation, its really easy to determine that those same persons are dealing with serious insecurities.
In your own story you told, it was fear based from begining to end. Lets examine it.
1) wife and I passed a guy once whose car had broken down in the middle of nowhere on our way home from the beach. It was after midnight, in an area with no cell reception. To make matters worse (for him) he was black-- these are all FEAR BASED COMPONENTS.
2) a rarity here in Oregon -- again FEAR BASED, an unusual circumstance.
3) I thought about it -- HERO COMPLEX---and realized (a) this poor guy had a real problem on his hands and (b) the risks of picking up an unknown hitchiker in the middle of nowhere ---FEAR BASED----were at least somewhat mitigated by the fact that I was ARMED.---HERO COMPLEX
4) I had my wife drive--CMON--this isnt FEAR BASED? he sat in the front seat; and I sat in the back seat directly behind him--again, FEAR BASED.. (I guess you also wont say it was because he was BLACK and it was unusual for a black to be out there.)
5) it was the right thing to do, but it was NOT a risk I would have been willing to take had I not been ARMED --again HERO COMPLEXING at the risk of not only you but your wife.
6) and he didnt even know it.-- HERO COMPLEXING... attempting to be in control of another human being unfairly.
Every element of this story is filled with FEAR and HEROIC thoughts. Just like your story about shooting injured animals on the road. A hero like you just happened to drive by and put it out of its misery with your gun.
Isnt it really the thought of killing something? even if its injured?
DOG, CAT, shoot, dead, Black man on side of road at midnight in the middle of nowhere where no one can see anything (no witnesses) and if he acts out BOOM! shot to the back of the head, dead.
There is a pattern to your thoughts bro.
Here, we call animal control to pick up or assist any animal injured on the road, we dont shoot them on the street. In your other story, if you were being a good samaritan, you could have simply driven to the nearest town and called the local police or sheriff and notified them of the man at the side of the road and avoided putting your wife in the middle of your fantasy. You could have called the tow truck yourself with the mans location.
Or, you just could have invited him into your car and drove on without casting an eye of suspicion onto him waining to pull out your gun and splatttering his brains onto your windshield.
Either way, I still havent the first clue on your thought process before you left the house that day for your beach outing that necessitated the need to bring a gun to the beach? Did you expect a shootout with the local clams? How does a person plan an outing to the beach and then factors in the need for a weapon?
I realize and understand now that you live in a rural community, and for that I give you a pass. I agree that in remote places, a gun is probably a good idea. Here where I live, its a concrete jungle, loaded with cops and witnesses.
Nobody here plans a trip to the beach and brings a gun. That would be foolish in a metropolis.
And again, I dont hate guns, I hate their fan clubs.
Peace
TOS
The history of the second amendment has been challenge for decades. Interpretations mean everything and depending on the members of the court, so do rulings.
There are three predominant interpretations of the Second Amendment:
- The civilian militia interpretation, which holds that the Second Amendment is no longer valid, having been intended to protect a militia system that is no longer in place.
- The individual rights interpretation, which holds that the individual right to bear arms is a basic right on the same order as the right to free speech.
- The median interpretation, which holds that the Second Amendment does protect an individual right to bear arms but is restricted by the militia language in some way.
The only Supreme Court ruling in U.S. history that has focused primarily on the issue of what the Second Amendment really means is U.S. v. Miller (1939), which is also the last time the Court examined the amendment in any serious way. In Miller, the Court affirmed a median interpretation holding that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, but only if the arms in question are those that would be useful as part of a citizen militia. Or maybe not; interpretations vary, partly because Miller is not an exceptionally well-written ruling.
This is my position. There are no longer citizen militias, therefore, the entire second amendment is useless.
The Second Amendment reads as follows:
""A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.""
Now that the United States is protected by a trained, volunteer military force rather than a civilian militia, is the Second Amendment still valid? Does the Second Amendment exclusively provide for arms to supply a civilian militia, or does it guarantee a separate universal right to bear arms?Gun Control - Does the Second Amendment Protect the Right to Bear Arms?
QUESTION: where in the second amendment is there a STAND ALONE provision granting the rights to own guns for personal protection outside of a well regulated militia?
Peace
TOS
Babagounj
Strength through joy
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Two words...."the people".
If the Founding Fathers had intended the "civilian militia" interpretation to be used, then the amendment would have read "the right of militia members to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
The Founding Fathers distrusted the opressive nature of large standing armies, and it was their belief that the final gurantee of freedom from a tyrannical government was an armed populace. Hence the inclusion of the 2nd Amendment into the Bill of Rights.
The phrase "the people" is used in four other Amendments besides the 2nd. "....The right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances" (1st amendment) "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects..."(4th amendment) "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disarage others retained by the people." (9th amendment.) "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" (10th amendment.)
The right of the people to keep and bear arms is also enshrined in most state constitutions. For example, Section 27 of the Bill Of Rights of Oregon's state constitution reads ...."The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence [sic] of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power."
Like it or not, the 2nd Amendment means what it says. The Founding Fathers recognized the fact that armed self defense is a fundamental, God-given human right.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But that is all it is, your opinion. 150 million-plus American gun owners dont agree with your opinion. The governments of the 41 states that grant their citizens concealed carry permits on a "shall issue" basis...or that dont require a permit at all....dont agree with your opinion. And millions of concealed carry permit holders nationwide also dont agree with your opinion. Fortunately for you....you live in a country with a Bill of Rights that, in addition to guranteeing our right to keep and bear arms, also gurantees you the right to have and freely express your opinion.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You are nuts.
I am not a hero, and I do not enjoy killing things.
I was raised to believe that you do not allow an animal to suffer if you have the tools at hand to end that suffering. Where I live, if you are outside city limits then "animal control" is either the county sheriff ( who might take an hour or two to get out there) or the nearest person who has a gun. Where I live, we often have to roll up our sleeves and take care of biz ourselves instead of calling 911 and waiting for a cop to show up. I lknow that probably sounds crude and barbaric to you, but not all of us live in gated communities.
I was also raised to believe that it is generally a bad idea to pick up strangers by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere at 1:00 AM. So...if there is a stranger by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere who needs my help....I will offer that help but only after first taking reasonable precautions to ensure my safety and the safety of my wife. It has nothing to do with being a HERO and it has nothing to do with FEAR, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with me fantasizing about shooting some guy in the back of his head. It is simply me wanting to do the right thing for a fellow human being in a SAFE manner.
BTW...if you want to psychoanalyze people's thoughts and beliefs over the internet, you might think about getting a degree in psychology first.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
You give me a "pass?"
Do you have any concept of how elitist and condescending that statement is?
Thanks, but I have had a carry permit for over 15 years and I have owned and used guns since I was 10 years old. I dont need your "pass".
And as far as you living in a "concrete jungle full of witnesses and cops" goes.....witnesses serve one purpose, and that is to testify at the trial of the person who robbed and or murdered you. And if that unfortunate event ever happens...the cops will show up after the fact to interview those witnesses (if any) and, if you are lucky, to take your statement. If you arent lucky....they will draw a chalk line around your corpse and take pictures of the crime scene instead. If you want to count on luck to keep you safe that is your call to make, but you do not have the right to require me to do the same.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
No, it would be illegal. Thats because you live in the People's Republic of Southern California, where only the rich and politically well connected are granted permission by your government masters to carry weapons for protection.
Maybe if people could pick up after themselves and place their bottles and cans in a dumpster, instead of dumping them on the sand or in the water there wouldnt be such touch regulations on beaches.
People are pigs when it comes to the beach. Debris floats in the sea at disgusting levels.
Peace
TOS
Similar threads
