guns

[cachsux]

I didn't bring up race, over did. Fact is that across ALL RACES one is far more likely to be involved with gun violence if they live in poverty. That is not the "race card". It is fact.

Yet you keep bringing up Chicago, where on the south side the vast majority of gun violence occurs by, wait.........black people. Go figure. Is there poverty? Yes. Is there opportunity? Yes. Last I checked the job application at UPS doesn't say No Blacks on it.
If you want to bring up other races in impoverished conditions why not bring up the southwest for the Hispanic angle or native Americans? Or West Virginia for the white angle?

 

[bbsam]

Um. I brought up Chicago exactly once on this forum. Remember? I referenced Humboldt Park.

 

[bbsam]

Yet you keep bringing up Chicago, where on the south side the vast majority of gun violence occurs by, wait.........black people. Go figure. Is there poverty? Yes. Is there opportunity? Yes. Last I checked the job application at UPS doesn't say No Blacks on it.
If you want to bring up other races in impoverished conditions why not bring up the southwest for the Hispanic angle or native Americans? Or West Virginia for the white angle?

4804. I didn't bring race into it. Over did.

 

[island1fox]

you have singled out blacks who are disproportionately poor in this country and seem to want to say ...i don't know...maybe we hare genetically different? Or somehow lack the same values and disregard environment? Are you telling me that an inner city black youth has the same opportunity as you and I? That is a fairytale devoid of truth in the US today.

bbsam,


What you refuse to look at are FACTS.

7.5 children born in the BLACK Community are born to single family MOMS --DAD has disappeared.

This puts the inner city black youth at a MAJOR disadvantage.You believe that this is RACIST ---I believe it is a REALITY that MUST change !!!




America needs COURAGEOUS Fathers like bbsam and President Obama---the NUMBERS --tell us PARTICULARLY in the Black Community. 7.5 -OUT OF ten born without the guidance of a loving Father=Poverty=Crime= etc.etc.

 

[UPS Lifer]

bbsam,
Got the context in 4804. BTW - talking about a particular race does not equate to racism. Throw a pint of hate in there, add a pinch of disrespect, and a tablespoon of superiority and you have a caldron of racism. None of that was in that post!

I agree with Over on the very first line. It is one gradual step at a time until our rights wither away.

I lived in a heavy gun control state and moved to a people rights state. I feel safer in AZ than I ever felt in California. I feel my politicians understand the constitution and will protect my rights. Law abiding citizens don't shoot to kill, they shoot to stay alive.

 

[island1fox]

bbsam,

Let me bring the heat and pressure down a little bit.

I am part of a Large Latin--Hispanic Family. Personal info --always bad to post.

Many are doing well have taken advantage of educational opportunities , have two parent families and --hard working --meeting with success.

Some of the Men in the Family( use term men loosely) Latin Lovers--Have fathered many children from different Women --do not support them --one of the Children has already done time in MIami -Dade Prison --went into the "gang life"

Same family --many overcame Racism and like TOS --work very hard and believe in Family values.

Others -father children into poverty --work the welfare system --blame racism and white society --yet have made the beds they now lie in ---We must wake up as a society !!

Stop letting generation after generation waste their lives. This is not Racist --it is Reality !! Men have to held Accountable !!!


It is really sad when people say I am Racist ????

 

[bbsam]

It is a racist COMMENT because it extracts race as the determining factor in gun violence while ignoring greater factors that cross all racial lines. If I were to tell you that 52% of violent crimes were commited by blacks (I made the number up) and that 59% were commited by people in the lowest 10% of income levels and your main focus was on the 52%, what would that say?

But then again, I am not concerned about the numbers anyway. I'm for universal national service of some kind REGARDLESS OF RACE OR INCOME LEVEL. If you thought FDR's WPA was expensive....

I must commend many of you though. I find it hard to believe that these percentages and facts would be so widely known if it weren't for the current debate. Now get all the numbers in full context and we can have a real sociology lesson.

 

[bbsam]

Island--

That is what I have been saying. The social concerns cross all racial lines. Post 4804 misses that COMPLETELY and there is nothing wrong with calling a racist statement a racist statement. Don't expect me to recoil from that because someone starts crying "race card".

 

[island1fox]

It is a racist COMMENT because it extracts race as the determining factor in gun violence while ignoring greater factors that cross all racial lines. If I were to tell you that 52% of violent crimes were commited by blacks (I made the number up) and that 59% were commited by people in the lowest 10% of income levels and your main focus was on the 52%, what would that say?

But then again, I am not concerned about the numbers anyway. I'm for universal national service of some kind REGARDLESS OF RACE OR INCOME LEVEL. If you thought FDR's WPA was expensive....

I must commend many of you though. I find it hard to believe that these percentages and facts would be so widely known if it weren't for the current debate. Now get all the numbers in full context and we can have a real sociology lesson.

bbsam,

Cannot force people to believe or not believe.

Math --one plus one is two --no argument.

Children born to single mom --highest percentage of Poverty, Crime etc, etc. White, Black, brown , red etc.

You look at the breakdown by Race --MATHAMATICS ---real numbers---and continue to waste generation after generation.

Just by the MATH ---Blacks have HUGE problem in this area --that impacts all aspects of their lives --opportunity, education etc etc.

Sounds like this has been beaten to death ---- real problem --TOS always claims I am in the leave it to Beaver world ---We are" PROGRESSING" to Soddom and Gomorrah ---but what the Hell if the total breakdown of family, family values is celibrated --let the chips fall where they may.

 

[The Other Side]

bbsam,


What you refuse to look at are FACTS.

7.5 children born in the BLACK Community are born to single family MOMS --DAD has disappeared.

This puts the inner city black youth at a MAJOR disadvantage.You believe that this is RACIST ---I believe it is a REALITY that MUST change !!!




America needs COURAGEOUS Fathers like bbsam and President Obama---the NUMBERS --tell us PARTICULARLY in the Black Community. 7.5 -OUT OF ten born without the guidance of a loving Father=Poverty=Crime= etc.etc.

What is the birth rate for single white moms in this country ISLAND, considering that WHITES accept the largest percentage of welfare in the country, I find it odd, you would post only about blacks?

Oh wait, youre using the limbaugh examples that he uses everyday to justify things.. My bad.

Peace

TOS

 

[bbsam]

So what percentage of young black men fit over's stereotype? Is that what you see when I walk down the street? You'd never know I made six figures and you probably wouldn't bother to fins out. Not that it matters, but I think these preconceived ideas are pretty pathetic.

 

[cachsux]

Um. I brought up Chicago exactly once on this forum. Remember? I referenced Humboldt Park.

Sorry, I said"you" I should have said "the thread".

 

[cachsux]

To add on to the post I made about the police letting gangs " police" themselves is the subject of when police do respond to a crime scene and have the opportunity to possibly end a link in the violence chain they meet opposition from the neighborhood that doesn't come forward to assist in the investigation.

 

[UPS Lifer]

can it be considered racist if the person pointing something out is the same race?

Yes - IF in the context of the statement the person is showing that the race is superior or inferior to other races. This is where it gets into that grey area because there is "little agreement over what does and does not constitute discrimination". (taken from the Apple dictionary) Some definitions would have it that any assumption that a person's behavior would be influenced by their racial categorization is racist, regardless of whether the action is intentionally harmful or pejorative. Other definitions only include consciously malignant forms of discrimination.[SUP][5][/SUP] Among the questions about how to define racism are the question of whether to include forms of discrimination that are unintentional, such as making assumptions about preferences or abilities of others based on racial stereotypes, whether to include symbolic orinstitutionalized forms of discrimination such as the circulation of ethnic stereotypes through the media, and whether to include the socio-political dynamics of social stratification that sometimes have a racial component. Some definitions of racism also include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP]
(This was also taken from the dictionary)

My personal definition includes a degree of hate, superiority with an intent to denigrate or disparage the race. Based on the definition, I won't debate bbsam on the issue of racism in the post because it is debatable. It depends on your interpretation.

I also think that maybe we do need to get back to some sort of National Service for ALL 18 year olds. If you want to put everyone on an equal footing at least for 2 years... this might be the way to do it and help to bring all levels of socio-economic strata together. I think that it might be able to be accomplished in such a way that it can pay part or all of it's own way.

 

[island1fox]

What is the birth rate for single white moms in this country ISLAND, considering that WHITES accept the largest percentage of welfare in the country, I find it odd, you would post only about blacks?

Oh wait, youre using the limbaugh examples that he uses everyday to justify things.. My bad.


TOS,

I realize this is tough for you to comprehend.


7 out of ten Black Children born to single Mom

4 out of ten Hispanic born to single mom

2.5 white children born to single mom,

You can tell me that because Whites are over 70 % of the population that the raw # of babies born in poverty is higher.

If you justify this problem in your mind --so be it ????

Can you tell me how 12.5 % of population Black and 16.5 % of the population Hispanic account for 90 % of the crime.

Go ahead tell me that 10 % of the remaining crime stats split between White, Asian and Indian are the real problem.

The vast majority of Black and Hispanics are hard working great Americans.

None of us should put up with the slight fraction of those Minority groups that account for the massive raw number of crimes as well as the massive percent of crime.

 

[wkmac]

I also think that maybe we do need to get back to some sort of National Service for ALL 18 year olds.

For the most part they have them for 12 years of compulsory education and how's that working for ya?

As to your idea above, I think the late Jimmy Stewart probably said it best.

Jimmy Stewart Explains Statism and "The government is the only thing we all belong to" - YouTube

I hope you'll sit back and give your idea further thought. To say I disagree with your idea of compulsory slavery would be an understatement and I'd do everything this side of violence to undermine it and the system and persons that perpetuate it. And yes that would include you and if need be I do all I could to undermine you and your economic viability too. I'm giving it to you straight so think about what you exert in force on others before you get mad that they push back even harder on you.

 

[UPS Lifer]

Wkmac,

A little touchy aren't we? We don't live in your perfect world of Libertarian views. I raised a point of discussion (actually bbsam did). I think we need to examine all ideas to improve the socio-economic value of our children and especially our less fortunate children, many who reside in the inner city.

Of course - our government really is not good at anything except defense and you could argue that if we were able to do a good job within our education system, we would not have to look at any type of "compulsory slavery" as you call it . UPS had a program where they sent division managers into our inner cities to live and work for many weeks or months volunteering their time and expertise to help those less fortunate.

I embrace a lot of your ideas, however, the difference between you and me is this; I don't let idealism get in the way of reality. Your last 3 sentences proves that you are extremely rigid in that idealism. I keep an open mind to any idea that might work to improve a problem or condition. If it does not work, drop it and move on to the next idea. Don't get me wrong, I can be rigid in my views as well.

I do prefer that the education system be the first and foremost attempt to teach and engrain a vibrant value system in our children. The goal should be to make our children productive members of society who can provide for their well being without depending on the government.

I am a big believer in diversity especially in thoughts and ideas. If all we had was uber left wing ideas or your ideas on my ideas, or ultra right wing ideas we would be a very weak society. If there are 50 people, I would like to see 50 different solutions to fix a problem and then mold that into a strong and effective solution.

 

[LongTimeComing]

Let me post this again, as apparently it was so out of line that it needed removed.

Gun talk? What happened? All these race comments should be for a different thread, no?

Threads discussing race issues/opinions/facts/stats never go anywhere...ever. It doesn't encourage anything other than disagreement and heated emotions.

The facts are facts...yet everyone interprets them differently. There are bad people. There are good people. Get along with the people around you. Be aware of your own ignorance or lack of perspective. Realize people are people. And move on. Until then, I fear this thread will go on for another 500 pages of the same "That's racist." "No, they're facts." "Here's my views and why I think this way" "Well I think the way you think is racist" "Democrats vs Republicans = Non-racists vs Racists (untrue)" "People who claim racism are racist" "Reverse discrimination" "Blah Blah Blah"

I just get tired by these topics. Everyone is set in their ways and their beliefs. I just accept that and try to be a good person. Maybe I'll change their minds that way, because threads in a forum never will...

 

[UnconTROLLed]

The simple fact is, if our country wasn't founded with the prospect of a concentrated few people taking all of the money and most people giving it away, the inner-city situations of the past 50-70 years would never have happened.

Areas such as the 70s South Bronx, Chicago, etc...these are all examples of structural poverty, slums by design and although it can seem natural to blame the behavior of the people (the deadbeat fathers, mothers), the fault ultimately lies within American big business and their politicians. They offshored most of the jobs, so the migrants had/have nowhere to work and are indoctrinated into a system of voting for their own welfare.

The lower socio-economic classes grow over time and control the political vote more and more, as they become more dependent upon it. The divide eventually becomes problematic for the owners, assuming an increasing and staggering wealth disparity. I believe this topic was written by Professor Robert Dahl.

 

[brett636]

Let me post this again, as apparently it was so out of line that it needed removed.

Gun talk? What happened? All these race comments should be for a different thread, no?

Threads discussing race issues/opinions/facts/stats never go anywhere...ever. It doesn't encourage anything other than disagreement and heated emotions.

The facts are facts...yet everyone interprets them differently. There are bad people. There are good people. Get along with the people around you. Be aware of your own ignorance or lack of perspective. Realize people are people. And move on. Until then, I fear this thread will go on for another 500 pages of the same "That's racist." "No, they're facts." "Here's my views and why I think this way" "Well I think the way you think is racist" "Democrats vs Republicans = Non-racists vs Racists (untrue)" "People who claim racism are racist" "Reverse discrimination" "Blah Blah Blah"

I just get tired by these topics. Everyone is set in their ways and their beliefs. I just accept that and try to be a good person. Maybe I'll change their minds that way, because threads in a forum never will...

Don't feel bad about your posts getting deleted as mine were as well. I have my suspicions as to the mod responsible, but I will find out soon enough.

With that being said, getting this thread back on topic is my next order of business. It appears an assault weapons ban is dead nationally, and the magazine restrictions aren't far behind(I knew there was a good reason why I didn't participate in the latest round of panic buying). To those of you who care keep the pressure up on your representatives about all topics gun control. Universal background checks will be a final "compromise" as everything else gun related is pretty much toast, and even that can't be allowed. Tell your Congressmen/women that any form of new gun control legislation is OUT OF THE QUESTION. Law abiding citizens and their rights are not the problem, they are the solution!