moreluck
golden ticket member
It's not always a rap sheet that gets you in trouble.......it's one stupid decision that can end it all!!!
guns
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
Yeah. Like playing cop and shooting dead an unarmed teen.
moreluck
golden ticket member
Again, do we know? Maybe he was grounded to his room and snuck out!! My kids have crawled out bedroom windows to meet a boyfriend. They never bother to rake the mulch where they crawled out.........stupid kids!
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
No, the 911 operator doesnt have the legal authority to order Zimmerman to stay in the car. However, in order to claim self-defense, Zimmerman has to prove that he was a reluctant participant who only used lethal force after all other attempts to de-escalate the situation had failed. Choosing to get out of his car with a gun was an act of stupidity that will make his claim of self defense that much harder to prove. Whether Martin was a angel taking a stroll or a punk who was in the act of vandalizing cars is irrelevant. You cant shoot someone for vandalizing a car or being a punk.
moreluck
golden ticket member
It works both ways.....Anyone can make a stupid decision....like a drunk driver.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
One thing that needs to be pointed out is that claiming self-defense as a justification for killing someone is an affirmative defense. That means that, unlike a normal criminal trial where the defendant is presumed innocent, the burden of proof in a self defense claim shifts from the state to the defendant. Normally, if you are charged with murder you can plead innocent and the state bears the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that you are guilty. By claiming self defense....you are admitting to killing the person and the burden of proof is now on you to show that the act was justified. In a case like this it is a very important distinction.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
My understanding is that it aids the defendant by removing the "duty to retreat".
That does not change the fact that the defendant must still be an unwilling participant in the encounter.
Hypothetical scenario; I am walking back to my car with my groceries in a store parking lot, and a mugger approaches me brandishing a knife and demanding money. At this point, he has the "MMO" (motive, means and opportunity) to kill me, and I hve a legitimate reason to fear for my life. Under "stand your ground", I do not have a legal obligation to try and run away before drawing my gun and shooting him. In states without "stand your ground", I could be prosecuted for murder because I didnt try to run away.
moreluck
golden ticket member
Apparently it's not relevent in this case....they're saying that law doesn't apply here.
texan
Well-Known Member
I have watched and read through each post.
I Googled a lot of both sides.
I do not know that I know what occured.
But it is possible to me that once Zimmerman left that auto, this might apply:
Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder. The distinction
between murder and manslaughter is said to have first been made by the Ancient Athenian lawmaker Draco in the 7th century BC.
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly
true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or
the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention
to kill or create a deadly situation.
Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. In states such
as Florida, manslaughter is not broken down this way.
In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without
lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or
murder . . . is a second degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in state prison regardless of whether the act may have been
intentional or not.[SUP][2][/SUP] If manslaughter is committed upon a child via culpable negligence under FL statute 827.03(3), then the crime
is aggravated manslaughter of a child which is a first degree felony punishable by up to 30 years in state prison.[SUP][3][/SUP] The penalty
is the same if it is committed upon the elderly or disabled. Also, under the 10-20-Life system, if a firearm is used in any way then
the penalty will be raised to the next degree.[SUP][4]
From : Manslaughter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again, this is possible. I still do not understand why he left his auto.
I was not there and I am not the lead detective with all the witness statements to sort through.
A thought......
I Googled a lot of both sides.
I do not know that I know what occured.
But it is possible to me that once Zimmerman left that auto, this might apply:
Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder. The distinction
between murder and manslaughter is said to have first been made by the Ancient Athenian lawmaker Draco in the 7th century BC.
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly
true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or
the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention
to kill or create a deadly situation.
Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. In states such
as Florida, manslaughter is not broken down this way.
In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without
lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or
murder . . . is a second degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in state prison regardless of whether the act may have been
intentional or not.[SUP][2][/SUP] If manslaughter is committed upon a child via culpable negligence under FL statute 827.03(3), then the crime
is aggravated manslaughter of a child which is a first degree felony punishable by up to 30 years in state prison.[SUP][3][/SUP] The penalty
is the same if it is committed upon the elderly or disabled. Also, under the 10-20-Life system, if a firearm is used in any way then
the penalty will be raised to the next degree.[SUP][4]
From : Manslaughter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again, this is possible. I still do not understand why he left his auto.
I was not there and I am not the lead detective with all the witness statements to sort through.
A thought......
Babagounj
Strength through joy
Trayvon Benjamin Martin (February 5, 1995 – February 26, 2012) was the son of Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin. He was 17 years old, 6' 3" and weighing 140 pounds at the time of his death.His parents had divorced in 1999; his mother is a Miami-Dade government employee and his father is a truck driver. Known as Slimm, Martin lived with his mother and older brother in Miami Gardens, Florida. He had transferred from Miami Carol City High School during his sophomore year to Michael Krop Senior High, where he was a junior. His English teacher, Michelle Kypriss, reported him as being "an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness." and said that he "was not a violent or dangerous child" and "not known for misbehaving". He hoped to become an aviation mechanic. He was visiting his father and his father's fiance, Brandi Green, at her rented townhome in Sanford, Florida, on the day he was killed, after being suspended from school for 10 days. According to Kypriss, "He was suspended because he was late too many times. His father said the suspension was because he was in an unauthorized area on school property, but he declined to offer more details. Trayvon Martin had no criminal record.
Interaction During a break in an NBA basketball game on TV, Martin left his father's fiance's home in the gated community of Twin Lakes to walk to a nearby 7-Eleven convenience store to buy some Skittles. While returning to the house, Trayvon was seen by George Zimmerman,who called the Sanford Police Department non-emergency number.
According to phone records provided by T-Mobile, Trayvon was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin's girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a "strange man" following him, and she advised him to run. She claims to have heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.
Police arrival When the police arrived, they reported finding Martin face-down and unresponsive, with a gunshot wound in the chest. The police report states that they attempted CPR, paramedics arrived and continued CPR, finally declaring him dead at 7:30 p.m. Statements by the police say Zimmerman had grass on his back and his back was wet. Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head; subsequently his lawyer stated that Zimmerman's nose was broken.
However, the police report does not indicate that Zimmerman required medical attention. Zimmerman claimed self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life. Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea.
An eyewitness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while the older man yelled for help. Another witness, Mary Cutcher, believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, though she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. The police say that she gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story. Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground.The police took Trayvon Martin's body and stored it in a morgue, calling him "John Doe".
Zimmerman has not been charged with any crime, because he claimed the right of self-defense, and investigators said they could find no evidence disproving that claim.
Recordings of eight calls to the police made on the night of the shooting were released by the Sanford police on March 17, 2012. Early press reports incorrectly indicated that the recordings included the sound of a single shot followed by a voice pleading or begging for help, and then a second shot is heard, after which the voice immediately stopped. Later reports indicate that gun was fired only once. Zimmerman told police at the scene that he was the one crying out for help. The statement was corroborated by an eyewitness who claimed that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, as Zimmerman called for help.One witness, who had only heard but not seen the events, believed Martin was the one calling for help, and claimed that the police tried to "correct" her into changing their assertion to Zimmerman as the one calling for help. Another witness who also heard but did not see the events, Mary Cutcher, claimed that she believed the cry was from Martin and said that she did not believe that Zimmerman acted in self defense, contending that she and her roommate heard Martin cry out, followed by a gunshot, whereupon they saw Zimmerman standing over his body.
The night of the shooting, Sanford police accepted Zimmerman's account at face value. Police Chief Lee said he did not have enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman. "In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self-defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him." In response to criticisms of the investigation, Lee responded that "We are taking a beating over this," and defended the investigation.
Missing persons report The morning after the incident, Tracy Martin called missing persons and the police to report his son as missing. Officers were dispatched to the home, where they showed the father a crime scene photograph of Martin for identification purposes.
Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interaction During a break in an NBA basketball game on TV, Martin left his father's fiance's home in the gated community of Twin Lakes to walk to a nearby 7-Eleven convenience store to buy some Skittles. While returning to the house, Trayvon was seen by George Zimmerman,who called the Sanford Police Department non-emergency number.
According to phone records provided by T-Mobile, Trayvon was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin's girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a "strange man" following him, and she advised him to run. She claims to have heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.
Police arrival When the police arrived, they reported finding Martin face-down and unresponsive, with a gunshot wound in the chest. The police report states that they attempted CPR, paramedics arrived and continued CPR, finally declaring him dead at 7:30 p.m. Statements by the police say Zimmerman had grass on his back and his back was wet. Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head; subsequently his lawyer stated that Zimmerman's nose was broken.
However, the police report does not indicate that Zimmerman required medical attention. Zimmerman claimed self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life. Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea.
An eyewitness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while the older man yelled for help. Another witness, Mary Cutcher, believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, though she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation. The police say that she gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story. Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground.The police took Trayvon Martin's body and stored it in a morgue, calling him "John Doe".
Zimmerman has not been charged with any crime, because he claimed the right of self-defense, and investigators said they could find no evidence disproving that claim.
Recordings of eight calls to the police made on the night of the shooting were released by the Sanford police on March 17, 2012. Early press reports incorrectly indicated that the recordings included the sound of a single shot followed by a voice pleading or begging for help, and then a second shot is heard, after which the voice immediately stopped. Later reports indicate that gun was fired only once. Zimmerman told police at the scene that he was the one crying out for help. The statement was corroborated by an eyewitness who claimed that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him, as Zimmerman called for help.One witness, who had only heard but not seen the events, believed Martin was the one calling for help, and claimed that the police tried to "correct" her into changing their assertion to Zimmerman as the one calling for help. Another witness who also heard but did not see the events, Mary Cutcher, claimed that she believed the cry was from Martin and said that she did not believe that Zimmerman acted in self defense, contending that she and her roommate heard Martin cry out, followed by a gunshot, whereupon they saw Zimmerman standing over his body.
The night of the shooting, Sanford police accepted Zimmerman's account at face value. Police Chief Lee said he did not have enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman. "In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self-defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him." In response to criticisms of the investigation, Lee responded that "We are taking a beating over this," and defended the investigation.
Missing persons report The morning after the incident, Tracy Martin called missing persons and the police to report his son as missing. Officers were dispatched to the home, where they showed the father a crime scene photograph of Martin for identification purposes.
Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
dilligaf
IN VINO VERITAS
I have no idea. 1 - I don't live any where near there so it is not in the forefront of our news. 2 - I have not read many of the accounts of what is going on. Mostly I am responding to what is being said here. I don't know Jeb Bush, so as far as I am concerned, (as you so aptly pointed out) anything he says could be attributed to election time pandering. We have a great many politicians that open their mouths only to look like complete morons later. Nobama does it nearly every day.
dilligaf
IN VINO VERITAS
Momma said it was for tardiness, that does not equate to the parent being honest. And I couldn't agree with you more on grounding. If I got caught ditching school or being late to school my ass would be sitting at home in my bedroom with no tv, no phone, no nothing for the whole time I was on suspension. I'd be doing schoolwork at home and chores. The same would have applied to my boys when they were in school.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
— The New Black Panther Party came back to Sanford with a vengeance, the shouted “black power” and “Justice for Trayvon,” rallying at the memorial near the scene where Trayvon martin was shot and killed, they didn’t hold back their anger.
“It’s time for us as black men, to take justice in our own hands,” said Mikhail Muhammad of the New Black Panther Party.
The panthers say they plan to recruit 10,000 men to search for George Zimmerman and arrest him.
“We want to search, mobilize, organize for the capture of George Zimmerman and we will bring him to justice,” said Muhammad.
Their message was offensive and violent at times.
“You kill mine, God D***it, I’ve got to kill yours,” said Muhammad.
They cursed and lashed out at Zimmerman, Sanford Police and even the special prosecutor Angela Corey.
“It’s time for us as black men, to take justice in our own hands,” said Mikhail Muhammad of the New Black Panther Party.
The panthers say they plan to recruit 10,000 men to search for George Zimmerman and arrest him.
“We want to search, mobilize, organize for the capture of George Zimmerman and we will bring him to justice,” said Muhammad.
Their message was offensive and violent at times.
“You kill mine, God D***it, I’ve got to kill yours,” said Muhammad.
They cursed and lashed out at Zimmerman, Sanford Police and even the special prosecutor Angela Corey.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Different people have different perceptions of the issues involved in this case, and there are many. Guns, race, poor parenting, police corruption or bias....there is something here for anybody with an agenda.
I approach this from the viewpoint of someone who, like Zimmerman, holds a carry permit. Ive had one for 15 years and I recently took a training class to get a Utah non-resident permit that is valid in 34 states.
I wasnt there. I dont know what happened in the moments prior to the shooting. What I do know from the training I received in my class is that getting out of his car with the gun was a critical mistake that set into motion the chain of events that led to the death of the young man.
Maybe Zimmerman was a racist, maybe he wasnt. Maybe Martin was an innocent kid walking to the store to get candy, maybe he wasnt. There is plenty of reasonable doubt here. But it all comes back to the moment that Zimmerman violated one of the fundamental precepts of legal civilian concealed carry...which is that you dont go looking for trouble with your gun.
I approach this from the viewpoint of someone who, like Zimmerman, holds a carry permit. Ive had one for 15 years and I recently took a training class to get a Utah non-resident permit that is valid in 34 states.
I wasnt there. I dont know what happened in the moments prior to the shooting. What I do know from the training I received in my class is that getting out of his car with the gun was a critical mistake that set into motion the chain of events that led to the death of the young man.
Maybe Zimmerman was a racist, maybe he wasnt. Maybe Martin was an innocent kid walking to the store to get candy, maybe he wasnt. There is plenty of reasonable doubt here. But it all comes back to the moment that Zimmerman violated one of the fundamental precepts of legal civilian concealed carry...which is that you dont go looking for trouble with your gun.
dilligaf
IN VINO VERITAS
When you apply Castle to the case at hand then yes, it changes the parameters. I agree that Zimmerman has a thinner line to claim Castle.
tourists24
Well-Known Member
this has been my arguement all along for any and all judgements/speculations. We dont know what happened in detail. Details in a case like this matters. To me it doesnt matter if or why the kid was suspended. Unless Zimmerman broke the law by following this kid then it doesnt matter if he decided to or not. It does matter though how the confrontation started which would mean all the difference whether its murder or self defense.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
moreluck
golden ticket member
You're welcome, kinda.
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