Is Central States pension fund ready to go under?

[tieguy]

Let's look at Central States' Form-5500 for the years 2003, 2004, and 2005, the most recent available on FreeErisa.

To start with, the Plan had Net Assets of $15.4 billion in 2002.

In 2003 the Plan had Expenses (bills to pay) of $2.5 billion, and Income of $4.8 billion, which increased its Net Assets $2.3 billion to $17.7 billion.

In 2004 the Plan had Expenses (bills to pay) of $2.6 billion, and Income of $3.6 billion, which increased its Net Assets $1 billion to $18.7 billion.

In 2005 the Plan had Expenses (bills to pay) of$2.7 billion, and Income of $3.2 billion, which increased its Net Assets $0.6 billion to $19.3 billion.

Net Assets, the money left over after all the bills have been paid, continued to increase in 2006 by $1.4 billion to $20.7 billion.

Net Assets continued to increase in the first half of 2007 by $0.7 billion to $21.4 billion.

Central States has problems, but it's not that hard to pay the bills as they come due, when you're sitting on a $21.4 billion mountain of money. Especially when new money is always flowing in at a higher rate than old money is being paid out.

Jon, this is all well and good and 21 billion sounds like a lot of money. Its good to hear CS may be better off then 2002. The problem is not found on your form and never will. Take it and wipe your ass with it. The problem is that 37 percent thats not presently in the fund. or that 50 percent if we go by your number of being funded 120 percent to cover future short falls. The problem is someone , somewhere actually quite a few someones and somewheres will be looking to collect on that 50 percent thats not in there. The problem and question that has to be asked is what happens the next time the stock market takes a dip does CS due to their inept management again drop down to 40 percent funding or does it cave in the next time?

kind of like owing 300, 000 on the house and bragging about having 150,000 in the bank to pay the 300,000 with. Sooner or later you're going to lose that house unless you come up with the other 150,000. Hope that analogy helps you understand this complex issue.

 

[JonFrum]

Re: 60% . . . Where's your PROOF?

Seventh, UPS runs a workplace where it is very difficult for most employees to last for the decades that are required to actually qualify for a significant pension.(correlate to the concept behind multi employer plans, employee leaves ups, works for another teamster company and still retires. Whats the issue?)

Many employees must settle for no pension, or a reduced pension, or a delayed pension. (er umm..bull..cough ...it)
Few qualify for the maximum benefit. ( Define few, correlate a comparison to what was paid in for them. Did those recieving less pay as much into the plan as those who recieved the max?)

It isn't enough that the money was contributed on your behalf. You must *also* qualify to receive it back in the form of a pension, by putting in the required number of years and be the required age. Most UPSers, as the result of the way UPS runs its business, and the policies it adopts, just don't qualify to receive back all the money they put in.
Again the multi employer plan still allows for them to work other teamster jobs and still retire if they feel ups is too harsh a job to retire with.

The money is, in effect, abandoned and becomes the property of the fund. This is largely UPS' fault, (Is ups administering most or all plans? )although the Teamsters are to blame as well( thanks for begrudginly including the teamsters) for allowing UPS to get away with it.

This is a popular theme of yours thats pretty outrageous to me since I've seen quite a few people retire over the years. Do you have any actual numbers to support this claim which seems to be a major theme of yours? You're using words like most and few to suit your bias's here. Could you come up with tangible verifiable numbers to support this anti company theme of yours? This is to me a terrific example of how you interject your biases into the argument. You can't make a statement this outrageous without backing it up.

Tieguy,
Only a *small* number of UPSers make it to the finish line. The documentation is in the files of your Human Resources Department. They do the hireing and document each New Hire. They also document the premature departure of those same UPSers. The revolving door spins very fast for New Hires, and slower for longer-term employees. But spin it does. And most of the money contributed by UPS into the various pension funds on behalf of those short-termers and mid-termers is abandoned to the general fund. You haven't noticed all the faces change over the years? Really? You haven't been involved in the endless procession of New Hires that need to be trained? You haven't heard the endless complaints that HR isn't bringing them in fast enough, and the HR response that as fast as they are brought in, Operations looses them?

Your claim that people who can't survive at UPS can always finish their careers by working for another Contributing Employer seems odd coming from an advocate of Single-employer pension plans, which generally don't allow such things. Further, it doesn't apply to Management, or Administrative people, or those hourlies too sick or injured or old to get hired elsewhere. UPS generates a lot of Walking Wounded.

 

[Cole]

If you're worried about a hovering armada of space-alien warships with their vaporizing energy rays, relax, this time we know Slim Whitman's yodeling blasting over the loudspeakers will make their heads explode!!!

Now that's funny! My Dad had a Slim Whitman album when we were kids, and used to drive us crazy like those Martians from "Mars Attacks". I t got me and my 3 brothers out of the house real quick.

No offense Jon, but why are you arguing so vehemently for a plan you're not even in? I do appreciate your efforts as you have brought up some very valid points, and Tie has too. Kind of baffling as well, that Tie is agruing for those in CS! Must be signs of the End Times!

Quick question a bit off topic, but as far as 401k, if someone dies what happens to that money? Is the spouse eligible to get it at some point, and could they continue to add to it?

Peace all!

 

[area43]

Area jon has posted the links for us to research. If you feel hes not answering your question go ahead and take a little time to research it for yourself. To be honest if i was jon i would be ignoring you at all costs, you still are on a witch hunt here for no good reason other than you are fed up with the cs pension and you want out at any cost even the cost at selling out a 33 year upser who has done nothing wrong but provide you with his opinion and links to do some research, but you would rather use slanderous statements and belittle him instead of doing any investagating on your part! Your next post better have some specific illegal acts like you have alleged against jon or an apology for being an ignorant, selfish, self centered, hypocrite! And i mean that with all my heart! Or just plain ignore him and go on with your postings and debate the issues, but i believe if this continues the moderators should step in and put a stop to your wreckless crusade!

Red, with all do respect please go back and read your post #233 permalink on this thread. Then read your above post. Then please explain to me again. It appears you have done your research(sarcaism) to try and call me out. Again, Red I have done my research, how about you. Obviously your statement is soley based on your bias opinion.

 

[JonFrum]

No offense Jon, but why are you arguing so vehemently for a plan you're not even in?

Cole,
I'm not arguing *for* the Central States Plan, vehemently or otherwise. I'm just trying to provide accurate information, and dispell inaccurate information about matters in general. I'm like a reporter, or an investigative reporter, if you perfer. If others would stop posting anti-CS stuff, THAT IS INACCURATE, then I wouldn't have to post a correction. It's shocking how much false information has been posted about pensions, and for that matter, about me personally.

Almost everything that can be said about one plan is also true of most other plans. Almost everything various people have in store for Central Staters, they also have in store for the rest of us. The APWA, for example, is not just a break-a-way group consisting of just their own members, they want to take *all* of us with them! Even if something is done only for Central Staters, the rest of us will be effected in a big way.

The laws that apply to Central States are the same laws that apply to the other funds as well. Everything is related. We are all in the same National Master Contract. (OK, except for Locals 705 and 710.) I don't want bad ideas to spread union-wide. Didn't you just witness what happened in Kansas City when half-baked (well intentioned) ideas were allowed to play themselves out? What was thought to be 80% solid support, turned out to be a better than a 3-to-1 rejection. I think it pays to have the advice of level-headed, knowledge people, not ill-informed zealots.

As a member I watched as the New England Teamsters Pension Improvement Committee (NETPIC) tried to reform things back in the eighties and nineties, and I sat through all six days of their civil trial against the New England Teamsters and Trucking Industry Pension Fund. I learned a lot. I've tried to pass on some of the hard lessons I learned. Unfortunately, some people are so blinded by their beliefs that they deny or misinterpret nearly everything I say. Some also put words in my mouth and attribute attitudes to me, which just misleads others even further.

 

[area43]

Re: 60% . . . Where's your PROOF?

Tie what happens to our years with CS if UPS pulls out ? Will UPS assume our pension? Many of us have 25 yrs with CS. Was UPS
going to assume our years we had in CS during the 97 campaign?

Bill, I have to explain. I have almost 20 years driving with the company. If I was in the CS plan this is how it COULD work in my case. First I must tell you I am in Virginia. As it goes now in Va. you can retire with 25 years driving at any age. I will be 47. We can buy out our last year in which I plan to do, so I can retire at 46. As you can see I will still be quite young. My Grandfather lived untill he was 90. So if you base my life expectancy at that the Teamsters will have to pay me 2500 dollars a month for 44 years. Wow, I know I've worked hard and deserve every penny but something tells me something might be a little wrong. Its a multi-employer private pension fund. No gurantees. If it was a government fund I would say yes. I believe some may think, because it is in writing that it will always be. Unfortunately that is not the case. It again saddens me.

Bill, is it up to UPS to assume the pension back to the 97 campaign. Good question. Why should they? Some say the fund was under funded. Didn't the Teamsters agree to the weekly pension contributions. Again, my solution to the problem is to cut out the middle man. As of now we can only speculate on what UPS will do. I say promises were made by the Teamsters that cannot be followed thru. That is just the plan hard facts. Fear of what the future holds is scarey. Lets just say all I had was the 401k for retirement and future predictions as of today said I would make 4000 a month and I could retire at 50. Just for the sake of it. I am 20 years old now. Just tell me this. Could it change? If it did, could it change after I have started collecting, lets say at the age 55. I find fault in this logic. Change, yes. These are predictions and are subject to change.

 

[area43]

Area jon has posted the links for us to research. If you feel hes not answering your question go ahead and take a little time to research it for yourself. To be honest if i was jon i would be ignoring you at all costs, you still are on a witch hunt here for no good reason other than you are fed up with the cs pension and you want out at any cost even the cost at selling out a 33 year upser who has done nothing wrong but provide you with his opinion and links to do some research, but you would rather use slanderous statements and belittle him instead of doing any investagating on your part! Your next post better have some specific illegal acts like you have alleged against jon or an apology for being an ignorant, selfish, self centered, hypocrite! And i mean that with all my heart! Or just plain ignore him and go on with your postings and debate the issues, but i believe if this continues the moderators should step in and put a stop to your wreckless crusade!

Red, I also would like to further comment on your ways of Stewardship. Why can't Jon defend himself? Red, you are like a nosey neighbor. Jon is a big boy. Its between Jon and I. Red, your not doing him a favor. Yes, a steward is there to guide but at times the employee needs to take a stand. Balls. All to often when I was a steward an employee would come to me and say. Hey, you have to go talk to my sup. Their putting so much work on me that I miss my lunch. Well, who's fault is that? Red, in a sense were all like little shop stewards. The union is only as strong as all of its members.

 

[area43]

Cole,
I'm not arguing *for* the Central States Plan, vehemently or otherwise. I'm just trying to provide accurate information, and dispell inaccurate information about matters in general. I'm like a reporter, or an investigative reporter, if you perfer. If others would stop posting anti-CS stuff, THAT IS INACCURATE, then I wouldn't have to post a correction. It's shocking how much false information has been posted about pensions, and for that matter, about me personally.

Almost everything that can be said about one plan is also true of most other plans. Almost everything various people have in store for Central Staters, they also have in store for the rest of us. The APWA, for example, is not just a break-a-way group consisting of just their own members, they want to take *all* of us with them! Even if something is done only for Central Staters, the rest of us will be effected in a big way.

The laws that apply to Central States are the same laws that apply to the other funds as well. Everything is related. We are all in the same National Master Contract. (OK, except for Locals 705 and 710.) I don't want bad ideas to spread union-wide. Didn't you just witness what happened in Kansas City when half-baked (well intentioned) ideas were allowed to play themselves out? What was thought to be 80% solid support, turned out to be a better than a 3-to-1 rejection. I think it pays to have the advice of level-headed, knowledge people, not ill-informed zealots.

As a member I watched as the New England Teamsters Pension Improvement Committee (NETPIC) tried to reform things back in the eighties and nineties, and I sat through all six days of their civil trial against the New England Teamsters and Trucking Industry Pension Fund. I learned a lot. I've tried to pass on some of the hard lessons I learned. Unfortunately, some people are so blinded by their beliefs that they deny or misinterpret nearly everything I say. Some also put words in my mouth and attribute attitudes to me, which just misleads others even further.

Jon, Please Cut out the middle man. That should be printed on t-shirts and handed out to all the CS members. Lets start a new campaign here on the BC site. Cut out the middle man. I just can't say it enough. Boy! if I was in the CS plan that's exactly what I would be doing. Get me a t- shirt boyzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[krash]

What do you mean cut out the middle man? The Teamsters negotiate contributions. Should they be removed from that process? Do we rely on UPS to determine what is paid in? Pick the plan? Oversee the plan? Determine what we receive without a "middle man"?

 

[tieguy]

Re: 60% . . . Where's your PROOF?

Tieguy,
Only a *small* number of UPSers make it to the finish line. The documentation is in the files of your Human Resources Department. They do the hireing and document each New Hire. They also document the premature departure of those same UPSers. The revolving door spins very fast for New Hires, and slower for longer-term employees. But spin it does. And most of the money contributed by UPS into the various pension funds on behalf of those short-termers and mid-termers is abandoned to the general fund.

Jon, I'm glad you're at least admitting to your ignorance so I can hopefully help you understand these complex issues. When you have many upsers contributed for and not collecting then that adds an excess of pension funding. What we have with CS however is a severe shortage. Like lots and lots of billions jon. Therefore your anology is nice but alas does nothing to help explain where those billions went.
If you happen to see some billion dollar piles laying around please let us know. CS can't figure out where they left them.

 

[tieguy]

Cole,
I'm not arguing *for* the Central States Plan, vehemently or otherwise. I'm just trying to provide accurate information, and dispell inaccurate information about matters in general. I'm like a reporter, or an investigative reporter, if you perfer. If others would stop posting anti-CS stuff, THAT IS INACCURATE, then I wouldn't have to post a correction. It's shocking how much false information has been posted about pensions, and for that matter, about me personally.

It is indeed shocking that you continue to do so. Its shocking you continue to defend a plan thats leaking like a sieve. Its shocking that you actually expect us to believe you're not defending CS.

As a member I watched as the New England Teamsters Pension Improvement Committee (NETPIC) tried to reform things back in the eighties and nineties, and I sat through all six days of their civil trial against the New England Teamsters and Trucking Industry Pension Fund. I learned a lot.

Unfortunately they did not teach you basic math during that trial. CS is about 18 billion down by your numbers and you can't explain it, you can't fix it and you try to tell us the plan is healthy. You then have the gall to accuse others here of misinformation when you are clearly the main culprit. Try not to embellish your accomplishments you did not learn enough if you don't understand that your account is severly underfunded.

 

[area43]

What do you mean cut out the middle man? The Teamsters negotiate contributions. Should they be removed from that process? Do we rely on UPS to determine what is paid in? Pick the plan? Oversee the plan? Determine what we receive without a "middle man"?

Krash, welcome to the discussion. Please go back and read permalinks #241 and #242. My solution to the problem still has kinks to be worked out. Its a rough draft. Krash you bring out a good point. I believe it could work out like this. The Teamster's who by the way works on our behalf would negotiate our weekly pension contributions with UPS. Now, this is the kicker, Krash the monies would go into a personal account with your own name such as a 401k(not everyone participates), Roth IRA, or just a plan IRA. As Tie pointed out there would be none of this vested(was 10 yrs I believe its 5 now) type of crap. Krash, I'll use the 401k as my example. To address the rest of your questions. If you CHOOSE to put your weekly 214 dollars a week(I believe it has gone up) in your 401k than we all know YOU have the Individual Freedom to choose what fund your money will go into. Ex. S & P 500, Mid Cap 400, Russell 2000, etc, etc. Krash YOU would pick the plan. Krash YOU would oversee the Plan. Krash what would you receive without a middle man. LMAO Not to be rude but I believe Cheryl would have to put a closed sign on the Labor Forum. As I have said before it would elemanant all the problems. Especially the corruption part.

Jon would be bored to death. No more fact finding missions. One part I like about cutting the middle man out is that if a driver decides to leave after 8 yrs or whatever, he has his big stash of cash to go with him. How's that for Individual freedom. Krash, I hope I've been clear on about "Cutting OUT the middle Man out". The less hands on your cash. The better off you will be.

 

[Cole]

As a member I watched as the New England Teamsters Pension Improvement Committee (NETPIC) tried to reform things back in the eighties and nineties, and I sat through all six days of their civil trial against the New England Teamsters and Trucking Industry Pension Fund. I learned a lot. I've tried to pass on some of the hard lessons I learned. Unfortunately, some people are so blinded by their beliefs that they deny or misinterpret nearly everything I say. Some also put words in my mouth and attribute attitudes to me, which just misleads others even further.

Makes sense as to why you have posted what you have etc...

Hey, you have to go talk to my sup. Their putting so much work on me that I miss my lunch. Well, who's fault is that?

How true! In that situation I ask the member if they have told mngmnt they don't want the excessive overtime, and if they have then we can file on it if it has continued. Often I forget my real name, and think it's "Can they", or "I wanna know why they"!

People should be their own stewards somewhat, and learn the contract better, and get together to enforce it. Sorry off topic!

 

[Cezanne]

Truth is that these "new hires" in the Central States area are all part timers and therefore covered under the company (UPS Pension Plan). Absolutely no monetary pension contributions are being payed for the first few years of their employment. If they are the minority that are lucky enough to get vested (five years), those funds are controlled by the company collecting interest till the employee reaches the required retirement age of 65. A part timer who is bless enough to collect a full pension are rarer than hen's teeth, in other words the plan is doing very, very well. The information about active and retired vested participants in the UPS Pension Plan would be on plan's annual Form 5500, which I believe that JonFrum and anybody willing to do a little research can obtain.

 

[JonFrum]

New England Fund Form-5500 2006/2005 Available

News Flash: The New England Teamsters & Trucking Industry Pension Fund has posted its last two Form-5500 Annual Reports on its website. Go here . . .
http://www.nettipf.com/plandocs.htm
and RIGHT-click on
Form 5500 for Plan Year Ending 9/30/2006 [1.2mb PDF file]
or
Form 5500 for Plan Year Ending 9/30/2005 [1.4mb PDF file]
and SAVE TARGET AS to your hard drive.
Or just left-click to view on your screen.

These versions of the Form-5500 are fuller versions than are available on FreeErisa. Note that the Plan ends its Fiscal Year on Sept. 30, so the first form (ending 9/30/2006) is considered 2005, and the second (ending 9/30/2005) is 2004. Confused?

FreeErisa also has the 2003 form (ending 9/30/2004) which you can locate by searching its Form-5500 database for :
Name Contains: Industry
Limit Zip Code To: 01803
http://freeerisa.benefitspro.com/

 

[705red]

Red, with all do respect please go back and read your post #233 permalink on this thread. Then read your above post. Then please explain to me again. It appears you have done your research(sarcaism) to try and call me out. Again, Red I have done my research, how about you. Obviously your statement is soley based on your bias opinion.

Red, I also would like to further comment on your ways of Stewardship. Why can't Jon defend himself? Red, you are like a nosey neighbor. Jon is a big boy. Its between Jon and I. Red, your not doing him a favor. Yes, a steward is there to guide but at times the employee needs to take a stand. Balls. All to often when I was a steward an employee would come to me and say. Hey, you have to go talk to my sup. Their putting so much work on me that I miss my lunch. Well, who's fault is that? Red, in a sense were all like little shop stewards. The union is only as strong as all of its members.

Area you are allowed your opinion and no one is denying you that right, but you have taken it way to far and you know it. When you start questioning info from this site with the posters real name thats just wrong no matter how you look at it, and if thats the investagting you have been doing i can see why you would rather make wild and unproven statements against jon. I asked you for the proof that jon is obtaining his info thru illegal means several times and again last weekend, so you keep away from the thread instead of posting your facts. Again its time to show what you have been investagating over the last week, time to put up or shut up!

You dont have the right to comment on my stewarding, you gave up as a steward because you said it was to much and that you couldnt do it any more! So you think you can judge any of us here who are stewards because we didnt take the easy way out by resigning, and decided to stay a steward bevause we do care about our fellow upsers that we work with? I will agree with your last sentence a little, heres how i see it, the teamsters can only be as strong as their weakest member.

 

[Cole]

Or their weakest agent

 

[area43]

What do you mean cut out the middle man? The Teamsters negotiate contributions. Should they be removed from that process? Do we rely on UPS to determine what is paid in? Pick the plan? Oversee the plan? Determine what we receive without a "middle man"?

Krash, this is a follow up to Permalink #296. Some of the other benefits of cutting out the middle man. As of now we only get 40 cents to every dollar UPS puts in the fund. With this you would get the full dollar amount. One thing about the 401k, there is a yearly max amount which is $15,400 dollars you can put in. I hit that limit in early Dec. If I was in the CS plan I would CHOOSE to put mine in a Roth IRA. Imagine, that folks. Lets do some math. 401k = $15,400 plus possible earnings Roth IRA = I,ll use $214 a week = $856 month = 10 grand(roughly) plus earnings. Lets again say were very conservative and get 2% on both funds that would be a total of 26 grand(roughly) a year for your BIG nest egg. Multiply that lets say by 5 years and you would have a grand total of $130,000 dollars. Wow!!!!!!!!!! and thats a highly conservative number. Fixed rate of return. Hmmmmm , Lets do some more math. 25 years at any age. Sounds good. Excited. LOL. Ok, 130 grand = 5 yrs. 5 Times 130 grand is a grand total of $650,000 dollars. Folks are you starting to see the light. Jon, how about those numbers. Jon and those numbers are indisputable. No, hanky panky. ( :

To all those BIG MEP supporters do you see why thats a failed way to do pensions. I have another idea, Jon, your not in the CS Plan. I have a question for you, but I know you wont answer it. Jon would you go aboard the CS titanic? Walk the talk, per say or would you be like the guy in the movie that sneaked on one of the lifeboats denying one of the woman or children a sit on the boat. Jon you should be ashamed of yourself. Preaching to your last breath that the CS titanic is unsinkable.

Jon and Red If you so desire to stay on the CS titanic we will give you that option. Lets do this. Anyone who wants to stay in the MEP can do so. Those that want to leave and do the "Cut out the Middle Man" Way. Than that is what will do. Choice, that's what its all about. Let freedom ring. CS ers there is a light at the end of the tunnel and its not a train. Sincerely area43

 

[area43]

Or their weakest agent

Cole, again you are very wise. Weakest agent good point, not to side track this thread. Quick comment. Cole I have seen and others might have seen also where a steward just wasn't putting his all into it or he was bought out by mgt perphaps. Ex. cushy run for exhange of a more cooperative (wink wink) working relationship with mgt. Some Stewards, and this is not intended towards you Cole have out lived their stay. Kind of like a career politcian(Ted Kenndy,John Kerry, LOL). They become out of touch. Lose the passion. Maybe they should have a Steward Boot Camp with you and Red(Drill Instructor Red) to recruit and train these green newbie shop stewards. LMAO

 

[Cole]

Steward Boot Camp! I like it! It's hard tp get anyone to sign up to be a steward though.